VW/Audi oil spec question - does 504 replace 502?

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: BobFout

AJ if they don't have that oil, what are they using in PD TDIs?


Oh, I dunno what they stock, that was kinda the point. I should have said "if" they would use SLX instead of 5w-40, I'd let them use it in my car.

However, I did forget it's a low saps oil, which is a no-go, imo and as oldbaldy pointed out.

 

[OldBaldy]

Ok, I ran another UOA on the Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 oil at 5283 miles. This was to check the wear on the motor and oil after the initial UOA sample test posted above done at 3608 miles, to see if it looks likely that this OE oil will actually last a full 10K mile OCI, as per Audi's service recommendation.

The latest UOA (at 5283 miles) looks quite good. No fuel or water in the oil. Iron and metals wear in very good shape, and for such a low SAPS oil, the additive package is lasting surprisingly well.

Blackstone also now think this oil will last the 10K mile OCI with additive to spare.
I'm planning to run another test at 7500 miles and then finally at 10000 miles to fully confirm the oil and engine wear for the 10K OCI.

Here's the latest UOA.

The NEXT oil I plan to try, is the latest Audi spec 504.00/507.00 oil from Castrol - the Castrol SLX Professional LL03 5W-30 long-life oil. This oil is the very latest oil used for up to 30000km / 18000 mile OCI in Europe with the variable service Audi/VW motors.

There is much debate about the suitability of this (low SAPS) spec oil in the USA with our Ethanol fuels, but it's the latest Audi standard used by 2007+ motors, and it allows for better wear and fuel economy according to the spec, so I plan to run the SAME interval oil sample tests to compare it to the older "OE" spec oil above.

One interesting thing in the virgin (fresh oil) test I did on this LL03 oil, is that the lab found a fair amount of aluminum in the virgin oil! I can only assume this comes from some storage container or maybe the oil can aluminum foil seal or something! See the VOA below....

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Ok, I ran another UOA on the Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 oil at 5283 miles. This was to check the wear on the motor and oil after the initial UOA sample test posted above done at 3608 miles, to see if it looks likely that this OE oil will actually last a full 10K mile OCI, as per Audi's service recommendation.

The latest UOA (at 5283 miles) looks quite good. No fuel or water in the oil. Iron and metals wear in very good shape, and for such a low SAPS oil, the additive package is lasting surprisingly well.

Blackstone also now think this oil will last the 10K mile OCI with additive to spare.


Your Audi's engine seems to be running exceptionally well -- so well, in fact, that I do not think other VW or Audi drivers should accept your results as assurance that their engines can also run for such extended drain intervals. They need to do their own testing.

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Ok, I ran another UOA on the Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 oil at 5283 miles. This was to check the wear on the motor and oil after the initial UOA sample test posted above done at 3608 miles, to see if it looks likely that this OE oil will actually last a full 10K mile OCI, as per Audi's service recommendation.

The latest UOA (at 5283 miles) looks quite good. No fuel or water in the oil. Iron and metals wear in very good shape, and for such a low SAPS oil, the additive package is lasting surprisingly well.

Blackstone also now think this oil will last the 10K mile OCI with additive to spare.


Your Audi's engine seems to be running exceptionally well -- so well, in fact, that I do not think other VW or Audi drivers should accept your results as assurance that their engines can also run for such extended drain intervals. They need to do their own testing.


Interesting thought. I'm thinking that the huge 9.5 quart oil capacity of this motor, when paired with a properly spec'd VW oil and OE filter, may well vindicate the Audi standard OCI of 10K miles after all. Do you have or can link any UOAs related to this motor and VW spec oils that indicate otherwise?

 

[Tornado Red]

Old Baldy: I am not arguing against the 10k-mile OCI. For your engine it seems very reasonable, maybe even conservative.

I am only saying that your engine must be running extremely well, for this oil to look practically like the virgin oil after 5k+ miles. In fact, the calcium and magnesium additives were HIGHER in the used oil than in the virgin oil tested.

And because your engine is running so well, most likely better than most other Audi V8's on the road, your results may not be the same as for other Audi V8s. Your Audi engine might be able to safely go 10k-12k miles between oil changes, while others cannot. (That huge sump capacity is probably a major factor, though.)

 

[OldBaldy]

Fair enough. I'm also not trying to be argumentative - but was curious if you'd seen any UOAs on this motor that indicated a problem with the 10K OCI.

I will say that my daily driving is conducive to easy oil service, as I run a fairly easy 20 mile run on the highway with only moderate traffic each way, so the oil always get fully up to temp, and I have very little stop and go city traffic, which may cause more significant oil wear.

I'll post the 7500 mile and 10000 mile UOAs to see how this goes, before switching to the LL03 oil and running the exact same mileage series of UOAs, for as direct a comparison of the 502 vs 504 spec oils as I can get.

 

[UG_Passat]

VW505.01 specification is actually mid-SAPS, not low-SAPS.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00

The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines

http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf



If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.

AJ if they don't have that oil, what are they using in PD TDIs?


Castrol TXT 505.01 5w40

The oil VW originally used when the PD's were introduced to the US/Canadian market

 

[Audi Junkie]

Here's a pic of the LL-III oil...

Here's a copy of Edge UOA my friend ran in his 1.8T.

I see low Z and P and a smidge of moly and boron, but much higher Ca than the SLX OE oil.

Seeing no real amounts of moly and boron plus the reduced calcium really is a shocker. It makes the USA Edge really attractive.

The guy who pulled this good Edge UOA actually has a B6 S4 too, a 4.2. He is very open minded with oils and asked me what my recommendation was. I told him Rotella T5 10w-30 Semi-Synth. He will be doing a UOA on that combo by winter, I'm curious if it will work as well as the subsequent oils. I'll be sure to cross post it to you, oldbaldy. fwiw, I projected the visc to be thinner than 5w-40 above freezing and not much different down to +15f to +20f. Maybe a winter oil in a V8 w/no turbo to worry about.

Anyway, this Edge UOA made me decide to try it in my new VW 2.0T TSI this winter. I'm actually tempted to spike it with a quart of Castrol RS 20w-50 MC oil that is available to me. Maybe I'll save that for the next winter if my Edge UOA looks like it needs "something".

That's it, I'll check back.

 

[OldBaldy]

Interesting! That LL3 looks nothing like the Castrol SLX Professional LL03 504/507 oil that my dealer stocks for 2007+ motors and that I ran the VOA on. That oil is pictured below...

The older 502 spec oil "OE" 5W-30 on the left and the newer 504 spec oil "LL03" on the right...

Back of the "LL03" oil...

 

[Audi Junkie]

What do you think of the Castrol RS as an additive in Edge and maybe for the SLX OE?

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9021705&contentId=7040548

Castrol Power RS V–Twin — Get the Best Performance from Your Bike

Castrol Power RS V–Twin 4T is an advanced premium quality synthetic blend 4–stroke engine oil designed for modern V–Twin engines. Its power protection formula is specially designed to protect your V–twin's engine from the build up of (heat derived) power robbing deposits, enabling you to get the best performance from your bike.
Features:

* Synthetic blend 4–stroke motorcycle engine oil
* SAE 20W–40, 20W–50
* Developed specifically for V–Twin engines
* API Service SJ, JASO MA2

Benefits:

* Extreme protection at high temperatures
* Superior high speed engine protection to help extend engine life
* Protection against thermal and mechanical breakdown
* Excellent oil consumption control
* Protection against harmful engine deposits
* Excellent gear shift quality
* Excellent wet clutch performance
* Excellent protection of exhaust and catalyst system

Application:

* Castrol Power RS V–Twin is suitable for all makes of Japanese and North American 4–stroke motorcycles with integral or separate transmissions running on leaded or unleaded gasoline.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/PowerRSVTwin4T.pdf

Test Method Typical Results
20W-50
API Service
SJ Service MA2
Specific Gravity, 60° F ASTM D1298 0.87
Pounds per Gallon 7.3
Viscosity, cSt 100°C ASTM D445 17.5
Low Temperature (°C) Cranking Viscosity, cP
max
ASTM D5293 9,500 @
-15
Low Temperature (°C) Pumping Viscosity, cP
max
ASTM D4684 60,000 @
-20

High Temperature High Shear Rate Viscosity,
cP min @ 150°C
ASTM D4683 3.7
Calcium % wt. ASTM D4951 0.075
Zinc % wt. ASTM D4951 0.127
Phosphorus % wt. ASTM D4951 0.115


If my Edge winter UOA looks bad, I have 2 fills of old green German Syntec 0w-30 I will use next winters instead. If it's a good UOA, I'll use the GC next year during warm seasons. For winters, I have a few more fills of Edge for it.

 

[m37charlie]

I was unimpressed with SLX Professional OE in our BMW X5 35d. It has a 7 liter pan. After 11600 miles, it had a TBN of 1.0 but a TAN of 4.83.
You should also be measuring TAN.
This talk of low TBN oils "retaining TBN better" is, IMHO, just talk.
I will be trying Delvac 1 LE 5W30:
http://www.mobil.com/Netherlands-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_LE_5W-30.asp
I may also try it in our 09 Jetta TDI.
Charlie

 

[UG_Passat]

When the 09 Jetta TDI came, initially the service departments stocked bottles of LL03 that came in VAG packaging (the Silver Bottle).

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Interesting! That LL3 looks nothing like the Castrol SLX Professional LL03 504/507 oil that my dealer stocks for 2007+ motors and that I ran the VOA on. That oil is pictured below...

The older 502 spec oil "OE" 5W-30 on the left and the newer 504 spec oil "LL03" on the right...

Back of the "LL03" oil...

 

[Audi Junkie]

I see these diesel LE oils and think they might be the ticket.

I have a guy who is going to run Rotella SemiSynth 10w-30 in his S4 V8 and UOA it. Should be interesting.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I see these diesel LE oils and think they might be the ticket.

I have a guy who is going to run Rotella SemiSynth 10w-30 in his S4 V8 and UOA it. Should be interesting.


All LE diesel oils sold in the US are CJ4 (same as ACEA E9), with up to 1200ppm P. the requirement for C3 is 7-900ppm P. The D1 LE 5W30 is ACEA E6, not seen in the US; only 800ppm P.
Better for the catalyst, but also very high TBN (12.6).

Charlie

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
I was unimpressed with SLX Professional OE in our BMW X5 35d. It has a 7 liter pan. After 11600 miles, it had a TBN of 1.0 but a TAN of 4.83.
You should also be measuring TAN.
This talk of low TBN oils "retaining TBN better" is, IMHO, just talk.
I will be trying Delvac 1 LE 5W30:
http://www.mobil.com/Netherlands-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_LE_5W-30.asp
I may also try it in our 09 Jetta TDI.
Charlie


Charlie, was there significant wear on your BMW diesel with the OE oil, or is your concern due to the 11K mile OCI? If the latter, what is the OCI expectation.
Frankly, I'll be happy if I can find an oil that lasts 10K miles on my gas S4 motor with minimal wear. I'm not sure (yet) if the OE will fit the bill, but indications so far are quite good. I'll still run the LL03 oil as a comparison, because I'm interested to see if it's much different in either wear or fuel economy, in a direct comparison of these 502 vs 504 oils.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Good info and that's funny, I'm running Royal Purple 15w-40 now that has a LOT of additives.

Thankfully, I'm not burning oil, which seems to make the non-saps oil more acceptable.

I'm just learning some of this stuff now.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
I was unimpressed with SLX Professional OE in our BMW X5 35d. It has a 7 liter pan. After 11600 miles, it had a TBN of 1.0 but a TAN of 4.83.
You should also be measuring TAN.
This talk of low TBN oils "retaining TBN better" is, IMHO, just talk.
I will be trying Delvac 1 LE 5W30:
http://www.mobil.com/Netherlands-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_LE_5W-30.asp
I may also try it in our 09 Jetta TDI.
Charlie


Charlie, was there significant wear on your BMW diesel with the OE oil, or is your concern due to the 11K mile OCI? If the latter, what is the OCI expectation.
Frankly, I'll be happy if I can find an oil that lasts 10K miles on my gas S4 motor with minimal wear. I'm not sure (yet) if the OE will fit the bill, but indications so far are quite good. I'll still run the LL03 oil as a comparison, because I'm interested to see if it's much different in either wear or fuel economy, in a direct comparison of these 502 vs 504 oils.


The OCI was dictated by the vehicle's computer. My concern was the complete depletion of TBN.
There were some wear metals, but the car is still breaking in.
Charlie

 

[OldBaldy]

So what I would deduce from the above is that your car's OCI indicator was about perfect - the oil package was used up and you didn't have abnormal wear. 11K miles seems reasonable to me.

So I was curious why you felt the oil underperformed.....anyway, I'm sure the LE will be a good oil. Personally, I'm happy if wear metals are low and the TBN remains > 1 with decent OCI mileage of 10K miles on my large sump Audi.

 

[m37charlie]

The oil was more than used up; TBN was 1.0 but TAN 4.83. Oil is done when TAN = TBN. From that I deduced that I need a low SAPS oil with higher TBN. And I don't consider CJ4 to be low SAPS, not with up to 1200ppm phosphorus.

Charlie