VW 2.5 Fuel Efficiency

[drewjp]

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However, over the course of 68.3 spirited city miles , we observed a disappointing 19.4 mpg.

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Emphasis added for those who missed the phrase "spirited city miles"

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What are you doing? "Spirited city miles" with a brand-spanking new engine?? C'mon...give it some break-in time before you really have fun with it...

 

[Volvohead]

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I guess I should rephrase...
In the nicher that the jetta/rabbit seem to try to fill - an upscale economy car, a 2.5L engine is not what one would considr to be economical. Even if it does routinely hit 30 MPG on the highway, it really isnt all that good. . . .

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Not to be rudely direct, but you just don't understand engine design.

The new VAG 2.5 was designed as a "balanced" package. It is not mapped to pull high mileage. But it is designed with the torque of a six, which is outstanding. And it still pumps out 150 hp, which is quite good for a NA design. It will outhaul a NA Volvo 5 off the line with its superior torque delivery, but gets winded at the top of the tach. People are drooling about what it might do with a blower. It will last twice as long as an overworked and underlubed 1.8. That it can pull nearly 30 mpg - as it does in our 2.5 - and is a treat to drive - demonstrates a very good overall package.

The MkV Jetta is not aimed at the upscale economy segment. It isn't a Civic or Corolla. It targets the Accord segment and is sized nearly similarly. It is much bigger than the old MkIV and is likely bigger inside than your Saab. It probably outruns it, too.

I think the OP was frankly full of it. Spirited sub 100 mile runs on a tight new engine are not my idea of a reasonable economy yardstick. That some folks buy into it uncritically to draw blanket conclusions condemning a vehicle they never owned suggests something else. Then again, that the OP vehicle was driven with such vigor should give one a clue to its bent.

 

[ourfamo4]

I didn't know this was "Bob is the Anti VW Guy"

 

[JHZR2]

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Not to be rudely direct, but you just don't understand engine design.

The new VAG 2.5 was designed as a "balanced" package. It is not mapped to pull high mileage. But it is designed with the torque of a six, which is outstanding. And it still pumps out 150 hp, which is quite good for a NA design. It will outhaul a NA Volvo 5 off the line with its superior torque delivery, but gets winded at the top of the tach. People are drooling about what it might do with a blower. It will last twice as long as an overworked and underlubed 1.8. That it can pull nearly 30 mpg - as it does in our 2.5 - and is a treat to drive - demonstrates a very good overall package.

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OK, so think that I don't understand engine design... OK, thats fine. I know that my engine is designed to make >90% of its torque from 1700-5000 RPM, like the 2.5, only mine makes 195 hp. I know the effect that this has on drivability and overall enjoyment, and I really appreciate and enjoy it. I also know that I can easily pull 36-38 MPG on highway trips, and even in heavy traffic, dont deviate from 30... Even bouts of 'spirited driving', full boost, WOT, higher RPMs, still doesnt deviate that far, and it has not deviated since new either - I log each tank. Im not trying to convince to anyone the superiority of my car or anything like that - I just have my experiences, and feel that this car has missed the mark. Im a bit disapointed in VW, particularly w.r.t the passat...

But, that said, and looking at the numbers, whether its aimed at a civic/corolla or an accord or whatever - the numbers are poor compared to what it could/should be. Heck, with the right gearing (a la my 91 E30 BMW), you dont even need a LOT of torque low down for decent drivability... if were talking about balance and drivability and enjoyment and whatnot - then the gearing and operating efficiencies come into account as well.

All Im saying is that regardless of what segment it is aimed at, and what its driving design parameters are, they missed the ball somewhat economy-wise for my taste. Of course, for my tastes, they missted the mark in the jetta and the passat, which definitely missed the mark compared to the BEAUTIFUL last-gen version...

It doesnt make 30 MPG any less pathetic for a car of that stature, ESPECIALLY if you consider it as compared to the economy and operating design of the engines, especially a camry or accord V6. Where is the economy of an accord I4, when the EPA numbers for it is 34 highway? Where is the torque of a camry v6 when it is rated at 268 hp/248 tq and still returns 22/31 MPG...

Somehow Im still seing a flop, even when compared in those segments...

JMH

 

[rjundi]

What I find interesting is that my friends retired parents have the high performance rabbit (4 door GTI DSG with 2.0T aka turbo) and get 28-35MPG on regular fuel.

His Passat with AWD/Auto and 1.8T gets about 26MPG. The NA engines at least in US by VW are not great on mileage IHMO. The Turbo's (eg 1.8T, 2.0T) do quite well given performance.

 

[drewjp]

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What I find interesting is that my friends retired parents have the high performance rabbit (4 door GTI DSG with 2.0T aka turbo) and get 28-35MPG on regular fuel.

Aren't you only supposed to use premium gas in that thing??

 

[Quattro Pete]

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Cabin Air Filter swaps every 20k,

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LOL. Sorry, but how long would you want them to last? You're supposed to replace it once a year, in most cars, otherwise the dust just clogs up your HVAC and it doesn't run as strong or plainly stinks.

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Engine Air Filter every 40k,

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What does Honda and other manufacturers recommend?

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I meant that the VW 2.5 is not an economy engine, even though they target it as so.

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Don't they target the TDI as economy engine?

 

[moribundman]

If you want to know why VW is putting the 2.5 five-banger in the Rabbit, read this:

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Der neue Jetta, der sich mit dem Golf V die Plattform teilt, strahlt nach dem Modellwechsel Frische und Unverwechselbarkeit aus. Gegenüber dem Vorgänger ist er in allen Dimensionen gewachsen, in der Länge sogar um beachtliche 18,2 Zentimeter auf nun 4,58 Meter.

Für einen attraktiven Basispreis von knapp unter 18.000 Dollar erhält der Kunde hier also ein geräumiges Auto mit üppigen 550 Liter Kofferraumvolumen (plus 95 Liter), das zudem mit neuer Mehrlenker-Hinterachse und einem neu entwickelten 2,5-Liter-Fünfzylinder-Reihenmotor bestückt wird.

Dieses Triebwerk wird wie das ganze Auto in Mexiko gefertigt und zunächst ausschließlich in den US angeboten. Angesichts des großen Hubraums fällt die Leistungsausbeute mit 150 PS bescheiden aus. Doch es ist ja nicht der Sprint von null auf 100 km/h, der die Amerikaner beeindruckt, sondern ansprechendes Drehmoment, das eine gelassene, schaltfaule Fahrweise ermöglicht. 228 Newtonmeter liegen bei 3750/min an, 90 Prozent davon stehen zwischen 1750 und 5125/min zur Verfügung.

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source

The gist of it: Despite the relatively large displacement, the engine makes moderate 150 hp. It is not the sprint from 0-60 that impresses American drivers, it is a good amount of responsive torque that allows a shift-lazy driving style.

There ya go. No word about gas mileage, which isn't a priority.

The 2.5 5-cylinder engine is not even available at this time in the German Golf. It looks like it will first be an option for the Bora (Jetta), then for the Golf. I believe the engine is already available for the Passat, but I didn't check.

For fun I checked what Golf versions were available right now in Germany:

The Golf comes in 6 levels of increasing price range. I assume the Rabbit would be the least Golf equivalent, but with the 5 cylder engine that

Trendline (15,750 - 23,500 Euros)
Comfortline (17,200 - 24,950 Euros)
Sportline (18,725 - 25,225 Euros)
GT (22,700 - 26,850 Euros)
GTI (24,775 - 26,525 Euros)
R32 (32,500 - 34,250)

Of all these lines, let's take a closer look at the low-end Trendline engine options. Listed are in this order:

engine displacement
power in kW and hp
transmission
fuel economy in l/100 km and mpg
CO2 emissions in grams/km
price in Euros

Gas Engines

1.4
59 kW/80hp
5-Speed
6,9 l/100km, 34 mpg
165 g/km
15.750,00 €


1.6
75 kW/102 hp
5-Gang
7,4 l/100km, 32 mpg
176 g/km
17.000,00 €




1.6
75 kW/102 hp
6-Gang-Automatik
8,2 l/100km, 29 mpg
195 g/km
19.000,00 €



1.6 FSI
85 kW/115 hp
6-Gang
6,7 l/100km, 44 mpg
159 g/km
18.225,00 €



1.6 FSI
85 kW/115 hp
6-Gang-Automatik
7,6 l/100km, 35 mpg
180 g/km
19.900,00 €




1.4 TSI
103 kW/140 hp
6-Gang
7,1 l/100km, 33 mpg
169 g/km
19.125,00 €





1.4 TSI
103 kW/140 hp
DSG
7,1 l/100km, 33 mpg
169 g/km
20.800,00 €




Diesel


2.0 SDI
55 kW/75 hp
5-Gang
5,4 l/100km, 44 mpg
143 g/km
17.275,00 €




1.9 TDI
66 kW/90 hp
5-Gang
5,0 l/100km, 47 mpg
132 g/km
18.500,00 €




1.9 TDI
77 kW/105 hp
5-Gang
5,0 l/100km, 47 mpg
132 g/km
19.050,00 €




1.9 TDI
77 kW/105 hp
6-Gang
5,4 l/100km, 44 mpg
143 g/km
19.375,00 €




1.9 TDI DPF
77 kW/105 hp
5-Gang
5,5 l/100km, 43 mpg
135 g/km
19.625,00 €




1.9 TDI DPF
77 kW/ 105 hp
6-Gang
5,5 l/100km, 43 mpg
145 g/km
19.950,00 €




1.9 TDI 4MOTION
77 kW/ 105 hp
6-Gang
6,0 l/100km, 39 mpg
158 g/km
20.950,00 €




1.9 TDI
77 kW/ 105 hp
DSG
5,8 l/100km, 41 mpg
153 g/km
21.050,00 €




1.9 TDI 4MOTION DPF
77 kW/ 105 hp
6-Gang
6,0 l/100km, 39 mpg
158 g/km
21.525,00 €




1.9 TDI DPF
77 kW/ 105 hp
DSG
5,9 l/100km, 40 mpg
156 g/km
21.625,00 €




2.0 TDI
103 kW/140 hp
6-Gang
5,5 l/100km, 43 mpg
145 g/km
21.250,00 €




2.0 TDI DPF
103 kW/140 hp
6-Gang
5,5 l/100km, 43 mpg
145 g/km
21.825,00 €



2.0 TDI 4MOTION
103 kW/140 hp
6-Gang
5,9 l/100km, 40 mpg
156 g/km
22.825,00 €



2.0 TDI
103 kW/140hp
DSG
6,0 l/100km, 39 mpg
159 g/km
22.925,00 €



2.0 TDI 4MOTION DPF
103 kW/140 hp
6-Gang
6,2 l/100km, 38 mpg
164 g/km
23.400,00 €



2.0 TDI DPF
103 kW/140 hp
DSG
6,0 l/100km, 39 mpg
159 g/km
23.500,00 €

 

[Mustang_Cougar]

As others have stated, it's an "apples und oranges" comparison, as here in the States we have very few choices as far as VW powerplants are concerned. Furthermore, the Golf V/New Beetle is a mid-sized car in Europe, with the diesel equipped Lupo and Polo (Polio) the gas mizer/economy class vehicles.

A fairer comparison would be the Honda Fit vs. a Lupo/Polo diesel.

 

[moribundman]

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Furthermore, the Golf V/New Beetle is a mid-sized car in Europe

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No. The Golf and New Beetle count as compact cars in Europe. A midsize car would be for example a 3 series BMW, an A4 and the MB C-class. A Lupo, Polo, Smart etc, would be small cars.

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

I can drive anything spirited and get bad gas mileage. I got 8mpg on a 4cyl Chrysler Sebring 4-door. My roommate can get 15MPG in his 4cyl Mazda 6 is he drives it hard enough. The 3.0L V6 in my Mom's Avalon is capable of 30mpg hwy but I managed to get 25mpg with my spirited foot and excitement that I'm driving a car that actually moves when the revs got high.

 

[Volvohead]

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The gist of it: Despite the relatively large displacement, the engine makes moderate 150 hp. It is not the sprint from 0-60 that impresses American drivers, it is a good amount of responsive torque that allows a shift-lazy driving style.

There ya go. No word about gas mileage, which isn't a priority.

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Correct. The 2.5 was specifically designed for the US market, where torque delivery has far more market appeal. That is why it was designed this way. That is also why it gets a little winded at the top end and would not be a great autobahn choice. But we don't drive like that here. It is also made in Mexico. I would be surprised if it was ever offered in Europe in other than turbocharged form.

 

[The Critic]

Quattro Pete:

Honda/Toyota go about 30k between a cabin air filter swap. Alright, I'll give you the air filter, Honda/Toyota recommend 30k, but GM recommends 50k. No TDI in CA.

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The MkV Jetta is not aimed at the upscale economy segment. It isn't a Civic or Corolla. It targets the Accord segment and is sized nearly similarly. It is much bigger than the old MkIV and is likely bigger inside than your Saab. It probably outruns it, too.

I think the OP was frankly full of it. Spirited sub 100 mile runs on a tight new engine are not my idea of a reasonable economy yardstick. That some folks buy into it uncritically to draw blanket conclusions condemning a vehicle they never owned suggests something else. Then again, that the OP vehicle was driven with such vigor should give one a clue to its bent.

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Jetta is considered a mid-sized car? I thought the Passat fulfilled that role. Nevertheless, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't find the Jetta to have interior space comparable to an Accord/Camry. Is it larger than a Civic or Corolla, quite possibly, but I think to state that it's designed to compete with the Accord is a bit overstating things.

I still conclude that the obtained fuel economy figures are an accurate representation of the 2.5's performance in city driving. I used an example with my friend's 2.5L. It gets 19-20 mpg around town and its driven relatively gently...

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The 2.5L I5 is not an economy engine. It is extremely high maintenance and requires a lot of $$$ to operate and maintain. Cabin Air Filter swaps every 20k, Engine Air Filter every 40k, and new platinum plugs every 40k miles. Tire pressure monitors must also be replaced every six years. Six quarts of 502.00 complaint synthetic oil, along with a $15 filter element, every 10k miles.

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You consider that "extremely high maintenance"?

I can only imagine what your definition of "low maintenance" is.

BTW, your parts costs are grossly overinflated.

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Let’s do a quick comparison in maintenance costs, over a 150k period, between the Jetta and the Civic. I’ll even eliminate the TPMS monitor costs as they’re irrelevant to me. I cannot possibly include all maintenance items, so I’ll include the ones required by the manufacturer and other common ones which would show the cost difference between the Jetta and the Civic.

The local dealership here, quoted me $15.95 per oil filter element. This isn’t way out of line. But for comparison purposes, I’ll say that I was able to obtain the element for $12 online, if that makes you happier.

A little research reveals the following maintenance requirements for the Jetta:

Oil and Filter Change- 5k and 10k initial change, then every 10k miles thereafter
Spark Plugs- Every 40k miles
Engine Air Filter- Every 40k miles
Cabin Air Filter- Every 20k miles
Transmission- Fill-for-life, but I’ll say 50k miles for calculation purposes
Coolant- Fill-for-life, but I’ll say 50k miles for calculation purposes

Part Costs:

Oil and Filter Change- $6/qt for synthetic oil, six quarts required. $12 for filter element
Spark Plugs- $12/plug, five required.
Cabin Air Filter- $20
Engine Air Filter- $20
Transmission- $70 for transmission filter from DriveWire, $6/qt for Mobil 3309/Toyota T-IV complaint fluid. (Beats $30/L OE fluid)
Coolant- $25/gal for G12+

To add up the costs:

Oil/Filter Changes= 16 @ $51/each= $768
Cabin Air Filter replacement= 7 @ $20/each= $140
Engine Air Filter replacement= 3 @ $20/each= $60
Transmission Service= 3 @ $100/each= $285
Coolant Service= 3 @ $25/each= $75
Spark Plugs= 3@ $60/each= $180

Total: $1508

Here’s the Civic for a comparison. The Civic uses a flexible service system with the inclusion of an OLM, and the transmission fluid now has an OLM as well.
Based on my experience with what many users are experiencing with the Maintenance Minder system, I’ll estimate the following intervals:

Oil and Filter Change- Every 6000 miles
Spark Plugs- Every 100k miles
Cabin Air Filter- Every 25k miles
Engine Air Filter- Every 25k miles
Transmission- Every 50k miles for comparison. In the past, it has been about every 60-70k miles without the OLM through the Maintenance Minder system, so I’m expecting it to be similar.
Coolant- I’ll say every 50k miles for comparison purposes, but the first service is not supposed to be until 100k miles
Valve Adjustment- 100k miles

Part Costs:

Oil and Filter Change- $2.50/qt for 5w20 dino oil, four quarts required. $5 for filter.
Spark Plugs- $12/each, four required
Cabin Air Filter- $20
Engine Air Filter- $20
Transmission- $5.50/qt, three quarts required
Coolant- $11/gal for Honda Type II Premix, one gallon required.
Valve Adjustment- $175 (assuming that you had this done)

To add up the costs:

Oil/Filter Changes= 25 @ $15/each= $375
Cabin Air Filter replacement= 6 @ $20/each= $120
Engine Air Filter replacement= 6 @ $20/each= $120
Transmission Service= 3 @ $18/each= $54
Coolant Service= 3 @ $11/each= $33
Spark Plugs= $48
Valve Adjustment= $175

Total: $925

$925 vs. $1508

The Honda costs about 40% less to maintain, even with my “comprehensive” service schedule.

 

[Volvohead]

You've got far too much time on your hands.

What rapist do you buy your VW parts from? My filters cost me $6.75 and I run $3 Schaeffers.

There's an old accounting saying about figures and lies.

 

[ourfamo4]

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You've got far too much time on your hands.

What rapist do you buy your VW parts from? My filters cost me $6.75 and I run $3 Schaeffers.

There's an old accounting saying about figures and lies.

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[brianl703]

Incidentally, I only change the cabin air filter on my Contour about..when I remember to. Say every 60K. I believe Ford specified 30K.

Why are you changing long-life coolant at 50K? Ford specified 48K as the initial change interval for the green-snot-of-death on my Contour, if I recall correctly, and then every 36K thereafter.

 

[The Critic]

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You've got far too much time on your hands.

What rapist do you buy your VW parts from? My filters cost me $6.75 and I run $3 Schaeffers.

There's an old accounting saying about figures and lies.

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Nah, ten minutes of my time was worth it.

Not sure where you're getting your parts from. ECSTuning is charging over $10/filter with shipping. Elk Grove and Niello VW in town are charging $15.95.

And one would need a 502.00 synthetic oil for the full 10k service interval. Would Schaeffer's meet the requirements?

50k isn't an unreasonable service interval for coolant, assuming that it takes me 4-5 yrs to rack up that mileage. Yes, G12+ is considered lifetime fill, but then again...

 

[brianl703]

Even the long-life coolant is specified to 5 years max, but 10K a year seems somewhat low to me, especially if you live any distance from work. The national average is 12K per year according to State Farm.

 

[Volvohead]

Any oil meeting VW 500.00 or later is suitable for the 2.5. This isn't a 1.8T or a TDI. Schaeffers runs just fine in it.

These aren't lawnmowers. They come delivered with oil in them. So you can deduct one oil change each from your figures. You also forgot to add .10 for the plug washers.

 

[brianl703]

Why not add $1 for a drain plug with a built-in washer, and deduct .10 for the plug washers?