Volkswagen Jetta vs. Toyota Corolla ??

[Mr Nice]

Basically some CVTs are very good, others not so good.

I recently had a new Civic rental with only 500 miles and it was very good. I wouldn't buy a Honda with a CVT, but its much better than the early Honda CVTs that were [censored].

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: supton
How do you know that they will be hunting? Just because it shifts doesn't mean it isn't where it wants to be.

It does appear that CVT fears are bit misplaced. Initial units, yes. Now, not so much. Although will they still be thought of as a replacement item after 150k?

I wonder what will wind up cheaper to replace: assume a maker sells 100-250k of each type transmission, per year. Which will be cheaper to rebuild? A CVT that has like four parts; or the 10 speed with, umm, lots more? [I'm not saying neither will see 150k, just that they are wear items, so be it 150k or 500k, which will be cheaper to repair?]


You go up an ever so slight incline-the transmission will downshift. It doesn't take much to have it shift back and forth-just a small amount of pressure on the gas pedal will make it shift. Like I said-I guess some (for reason(s) only known to the universe find this preferable to a CVT.


Isn't that a good thing? If the engine rpm was such that it could climb the hill with ease--doesn't that mean it is spinning too fast on flat ground? let alone when going down the hill.

I would love a torque-rich engine that would never need to downshift on any hill. [Oh wait--isn't than an electric motor?] Barring that, just the nature of the beast. Tall gearing for mpg is going to have most gassers below where their hill climbing ability is at.

 

[CharBaby]

I think that people are under the impression that a CVT just hangs out in high rpms. They don't. Only at WOT right up until you let off the gas pedal. Under normal throttle tip in, the CVT just gradually steps up the rpm as needed. And most of the time, it's just loafing down around 2 grand or lower at hiwy speeds.

They're the only transmission that I am aware of that, while your accelerating gradually(as in normal driving), your speed is increasing while at the same time, your rpms are lowering.

A lot of people just don't like this feel. Nor the feel of an engine(under WOT), just hanging around its highest rpm. It's kind of like an outboard motor at full throttle.

But, how often are we at WOT? I only WOT as I would in any vehicle, to pass slower traffic and I don't alway mash the pedal to the metal, as part throttle is more than enough in most situations.

Under regular driving, the CVT just feels like a regular automatic tranny. Even as your throttle tipping, you'll experience what feels like a mild downshift, usually the torque of the engine. Many CVTs have programmed in, shift feel during part throttle all the way to WOT!

What people don't like, because their not accustomed to it is:

CVT...At WOT the engine goes straight to the highest RPM and sounds like...Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Until you remove your right foot.

Shiftable auto...We're used to having our engine sound like...Vrrrrom(shift), vrrrrrrrrooooooooom(shift), vrrrrrroooooooooooooooooooooooooooom etc.
^^^(How'd you like that scenario?)

However, the same engine/same vehicle with 2 different trannys(shiftable auto tranny or CVT), the CVT will accelerate quicker due to no RPM drop off between shifts. This is not the same for Dual Clutch Tranny's(DCT), Dual Shift Gearbox(DSG), in which both are automated manuals/robotized manuals, whatever we like to call'em. These shift very quickly and launch off the line like nobody's business. However, they too have their quirks that many customers don't like. And from what I am hearing, MFGs are moving away from them as they're even more problematic than CVTs.

 

[billt460]

The Williams Formula 1 Team was testing CVT Transmissions way back in 1993.

 

[CincyDavid]

I drive a newish Jetta and I'm completely satisfied with it. Truthfully, there have been a couple of occasions where hte 1.8t would have been nice, in place of the 1.4t, but 99% of the time the 1.4t is just fine. Having said that, I do lease my cars, so I do a couple of oil changes, a couple of sets of wiper blades, and several tire rotations and that's IT. Trade it in for a new shiny one.

I am NOT a Toyota fan, the only Toyota that I find/found appealing is the outgoing Avalon style.

If I was buying a car to drive the wheels off of it, as much as I think it's ugly and horrible, I'd get a Camry. If I needed something smaller, I'd get a Corolla. The shame of it is, there aren't many durable AND reliable cars out there...even the old "bulletproof" Volvos and MBs needed more piddly repairs than a comparable Asian car. To reiterate, I can't stand Toyota vehicles for the most part, but for driving the dumb thing for decades, I'd have to swallow my pride and buy the appliance, in a non-metallic color like white or black, with cloth seats and basic alloy wheels, no sunroof, in the interest of buying cheap tires and avoiding leaks in the future. YUCK.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
for driving the dumb thing for decades, I'd have to swallow my pride and buy the appliance, in a non-metallic color like white or black, with cloth seats and basic alloy wheels, no sunroof, in the interest of buying cheap tires and avoiding leaks in the future. YUCK.


Why? If you're going to drive for decades, buy what you want, at the option level you want. Not all options fail, and many aren't that bad to repair if they do. If I was going to have a car for 10 years, I'd want it the exact way I liked it! steel wheels or alloys, whichever floated my boat, along with the rest. And of course, the exact color I wanted.

Now, if I was 5 and done (let alone less), then I'd want to pick my options so as to get best resale.

 

[cb450sc]

Basically some CVTs are very good, others not so good.

I recently had a new Civic rental with only 500 miles and it was very good. I wouldn't buy a Honda with a CVT, but its much better than the early Honda CVTs that were [censored].

I had one of thoses early Honda CVTs on my 2003 Civic Hybrid. Never again!

 

[KrisZ]

My dad bought a Mitsubishi PVR or something like that and it has a CVT tranny. From the normal driving perspective I agree with others that say it behaves pretty normal. Even heavy throttle didn't bother me, probably because I understand the mechanics behind it and know that max RPM=max HP= max acceleration.

That is why the Williams CVT, mentioned above, was banned the moment the competition saw them practice. Williams never got a chance to race it.

My concern with CVTs is from durability and reliability stand point. These trannies do great in small, low TQ engines in light applications, but NA is not exactly know for embracing small vehicles with low TQ and HP numbers.

 

[CincyDavid]

Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
for driving the dumb thing for decades, I'd have to swallow my pride and buy the appliance, in a non-metallic color like white or black, with cloth seats and basic alloy wheels, no sunroof, in the interest of buying cheap tires and avoiding leaks in the future. YUCK.


Why? If you're going to drive for decades, buy what you want, at the option level you want. Not all options fail, and many aren't that bad to repair if they do. If I was going to have a car for 10 years, I'd want it the exact way I liked it! steel wheels or alloys, whichever floated my boat, along with the rest. And of course, the exact color I wanted.

Now, if I was 5 and done (let alone less), then I'd want to pick my options so as to get best resale.


I'm thinking in terms of simplicity and minimizing things that can break and cost me money later. I'm also super touchy about paint color match, and I assume it would get hit at some point, needing body work and paint. Solid black is my favorite color in that sense, because metallics can be tricky to color-match years down the road, due to fading, etc. and even solid white can be problematic due to clear coat yellowing. Leather doesn't always hold up very well...decent cloth should last the life of the car.

 

[supton]

I thought black was bad for keeping clean? White, I've had issues with my Tundra, have a nick or two and it's rusting--and very visible. It shouldn't be as I rarely wash vehicles, but for some reason I feel like it shows up very prominently. Now silver was a good color for me, wore dirt well. As for fixing dents, as you might guess, I wouldn't bother on a long term vehicle. My cars live outside, get dinged and suffer from salt. After a few years it's just adding warmth and character to the car, I figure.

Leather, hmm. Last car had leather seats and I liked them. >300k and zero issues. And no stains to worry about either. But not all makers are known for making good leather.

Alloys are probably the one thing I'd skip. Steelies rust like mad, but, are cheap to replace. Alloys, seen too many that look worse than rusted steelies after a few years. These days they come with low profile rubber to boot.

Oh and I hate the color black. Had a black interior and that car was always hot in the summer sun. Never again.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
for driving the dumb thing for decades, I'd have to swallow my pride and buy the appliance, in a non-metallic color like white or black, with cloth seats and basic alloy wheels, no sunroof, in the interest of buying cheap tires and avoiding leaks in the future. YUCK.


Why? If you're going to drive for decades, buy what you want, at the option level you want. Not all options fail, and many aren't that bad to repair if they do. If I was going to have a car for 10 years, I'd want it the exact way I liked it! steel wheels or alloys, whichever floated my boat, along with the rest. And of course, the exact color I wanted.

Now, if I was 5 and done (let alone less), then I'd want to pick my options so as to get best resale.


I'm thinking in terms of simplicity and minimizing things that can break and cost me money later. I'm also super touchy about paint color match, and I assume it would get hit at some point, needing body work and paint. Solid black is my favorite color in that sense, because metallics can be tricky to color-match years down the road, due to fading, etc. and even solid white can be problematic due to clear coat yellowing. Leather doesn't always hold up very well...decent cloth should last the life of the car.


That's a good point. However-in the case of transmissions (CVT or otherwise) how many cars are going to make sense to repair if the transmissions go out-which is usually at a very high millage figure? Many times it just pencil out to repair replace a transmission or motor.

 

[javacontour]

I wonder how many got the wrong fluid because they were talked into a fluid change by a rapid lube place?

Similar to the early MOPAR 4 speed FWD transmissions with the special (at the time) fluid. Someone swapped it with whatever they used on their previous Chrysler and then the transmission went south.

Of course our 2010 Altima is a slightly later iteration, we've had 170k miles of trouble free driving. Probably time to change the fluid again this summer.

I just dropped the pan and replaced the volume I collected. I used Castrol CVT fluid that meets the specs to replace Nissan NS-2 fluid. Drained and filled 5qts IIRC.

I think I'll do it again this year, as it's been a couple years since the last change.

But how many were improperly serviced and then the transmission is blamed when the wrong fluid was the real culprit?


Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Turbo fears are overrated.


I'm starting to believe much the same thing about CVT Transmissions. There are simply far too many of them out there, that if there was any type of serious reliability issues with them, it would have surfaced by now. There isn't, in spite of the fact most all of the compacts from the biggest manufacturers all use them, and have for years. There are literally millions of them on the road in this country alone. Millions more throughout Continental Europe, where 4 cylinder compacts are even more popular than in this country, due to high fuel costs.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: supton
I thought black was bad for keeping clean?


They are HORRIBLE to keep clean. I had a black 1978 Vette. And I will NEVER own another black car as long as I live. I remember washing that thing, and after a 5 minute trip to the bank and back, it would have a coat of dust on it. HORRIBLE to keep clean. White is the easiest to keep clean. Dust doesn't show hardly at all. And once you slop them up by driving in the rain, it doesn't matter what color they are. But even then black will show it the worst.

 

[Mr Nice]

Quote:
Steelies rust like mad, but, are cheap to replace. Alloys, seen too many that look worse than rusted steelies after a few years.


Spraying the steelies with flat black Rust-Oleum really helps.

 

[mtndew_dad]

I got a new compact car this past summer. Being taller than average at 6’3”, I found most small cars just didn’t fit me, or had an uncomfortable driving position. I really wanted to like the Civic, but I am approaching the age where climbing down into its very low cockpit was a concern. Corolla has just an odd driving position, for me at least. I ended up with a 17 Jetta S. When I sat in it for the first time it just felt right. It’s not at all gimmicky, which I prefer. The 1.4 TSI engine is awesome! Lots of low end torque and very responsive. 33-37 mpg in daily driving. The steering and brakes actually have some feel to them so it is much more enjoyable to drive than the 2010 Camry I also currently own. Big back seat and trunk is a plus. The new 6 yr, 72,000 mile warranty would give you plenty of time to drive worry free and see if newer VW’s are better in terms of reliability than in the past. Definitely check out the Jetta.

 

[CincyDavid]

I got in the funeral and cemetery trade in the 80s and driving a black car seems natural to me. I don't mind washing them, and there's nothing prettier than a freshly-washed black car. I don't deal well with dings and dents, and get them fixed. Silver, gold, light metallic blue, most light metallic colors are miserable to match later. There are a multitude of black colors, from warm almost-brown to really cool almost-blue, but color match isn't too tough.

I have never damaged an alloy wheel badly enough that it couldn't be repair/remanufactured, but I also avoid really big wheels with low-pro tires because I don't want to start replacing wheels, and don't want to spend a fortune on 18 or 19 inch tires.

I do transmission fluid changes fairly frequently on "keeper" cars and the last time I had a transmission poop the bed was an '88 Buick Century that thankfully had the 3 speed auto, not the 4 speed, so it only cost $750 to rebuild it.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Turbo fears are overrated.


I'm starting to believe much the same thing about CVT Transmissions. There are simply far too many of them out there, that if there was any type of serious reliability issues with them, it would have surfaced by now. There isn't, in spite of the fact most all of the compacts from the biggest manufacturers all use them, and have for years. There are literally millions of them on the road in this country alone. Millions more throughout Continental Europe, where 4 cylinder compacts are even more popular than in this country, due to high fuel costs.

And one thing people do with Toyota's is keep them, and rack up high mileage in the process. So if all these CVT Transmissions currently out there were so bad, and had serious reliability issues coupled with high failure rates, there would have been massive recalls with them. There hasn't been. I think what makes them so unpopular is they drive much differently. And in the process somewhat "detune" the car, and turn off people who like, want, and expect performance in most everything they drive. You have to accept these 4 cylinder compacts for what they are. Basic A to B transportation and grocery getters, and nothing more. If you want "excitement" in your driving, buy a performance car. Not a 4 cylinder compact with mag wheels.

I just think people expect way too much from these vehicles. And because they don't deliver it, right away they want to blame and complain about the CVT as being part of the problem. At least that's my take. I base it on the fact I'm not hearing from people who tend to badmouth them, and give problems and failure as the reason why. They just don't like them. Which is fine. But that in itself should not tarnish the reliability and dependability factor of them.


I think youre probably right. There are mechanical considerations that require them to only be coupled to low power engines, but that's kind of the case in general anyway. I recall reading that the constant torque rating of some BMW gearboxes was only ca 320lb-ft. CVT parts are just weak(er) which is why they are only coupled with weak engines. If you have an econobox, thats part of the expectation. In a low power application, with light usage, I cant see why a CVT would have abnormally low life. Kind of like Dex Cool making brown sludge, I have to wonder how much is wrong fluids being used too...

I dont like CVTs because of how they feel/operate. I think this summed it up well:

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
I think that people are under the impression that a CVT just hangs out in high rpms. They don't. Only at WOT right up until you let off the gas pedal. Under normal throttle tip in, the CVT just gradually steps up the rpm as needed. And most of the time, it's just loafing down around 2 grand or lower at hiwy speeds.

They're the only transmission that I am aware of that, while your accelerating gradually(as in normal driving), your speed is increasing while at the same time, your rpms are lowering.


But I prefer MTs anyway. Alas, cant get them in stuff like minivans... But then again, you cant get CVTs either.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


But I prefer MTs anyway. Alas, cant get them in stuff like minivans... But then again, you cant get CVTs either.


Yep, once the Quest left the market, a CVT minivan went with it.

Well, you could get the Nissan NV-200 with its 4 cylinder CVT powertrain, but I don't think it's a family hauler...

 

[dja4260]

My mother-in-law had a 2014 Corolla. The CVT trans went out at 68k. She traded it in on another Corolla which completely blows my mind and makes zero sense. No warranty and a $4500+ repair.

No thank you!

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: dja4260
My mother-in-law had a 2014 Corolla. The CVT trans went out at 68k. She traded it in on another Corolla which completely blows my mind and makes zero sense. No warranty and a $4500+ repair.

No thank you!


That's the first I've heard of the Toyota CVT giving up--I'm sure it's happened to others, anything can fail, and I expect all transmissions to fail (eventually).

I'm not following your line of thought though. Are you saying it makes no sense to buy another model, even though it might be just as prone to dying an early death? I'm not sure if I'd agree, surely there are other Corolla CVT's with far higher mileage.

Also, was the $4,500 the amount the dealer wanted to repair? I'ad agree, that is cheaper than a new car, but maybe she just wanted a new car?