Wow, this dogged mentality of entitlement to a "nanny state" is what will drive this country bankrupt. It is not the goverment's job to take care of everybody.
VAT on the way?
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welcome 3rd world status.
There are a few occasional examples where doctors have used physical force to extract money from people, but most of the time people pay them voluntarily for their services.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/29/minnesota.forced.chemo/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/29/minnesota.forced.chemo/index.html
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I beg your pardon
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
welcome 3rd world status.
That is the plan!
welcome 3rd world status.
That is the plan!
IMO the main reason our medical cost is so high is because of our mentality that anything treatable under the sun must be treated at all cost, public or private.
Pregnancy massage, restless leg syndrome, hip replacement, Viagra, life support, etc on anyone that wishes it.
When you look at the 3rd world, or 2nd world nations, their definition of medical is seeing a doctor after waiting in line for 3 hours, and get a 180 days supply of pills like steroid, cough syrup, etc.
On top of that, in the US, we have malpractice lawsuit that results in insurance overhead of 30% for the medical service providers, which achieves nothing for the average population in general, other than making lawyers on both side riches.
It is not public vs private care that bankrupt the work force and economy, but the expectation of quality that we want. You can only compete with other nations when you drop your standard and or close the loopholes that plague the system right now.
I'd think as we see the private system we have right now is clearly unaffordable when you need it the most (lower income population that are uninsured), and the public system as is will not be sustainable (medicare going to be bankrupt by the time many of us retire).
Will, as Tempest desire, moving the responsibility from Federal to State helps the situation? Of course not, because people move from state to state and it is just shuffling people and money around rather than solving the actual problems.
Getting rid of hefty malpractice lawsuit should be a high priority, then the limiting of abuse, removing waste (i.e. eliminating the prescription of a new drug that is only a mirror image of the patent free version is a waste and abuse), then we wouldn't have much to worry about public vs private.
As for me, I trust neither in the US of A, and I'm going to retire in a 3rd world country and pay medical expense out of pocket when my health is deteriorating.
Pregnancy massage, restless leg syndrome, hip replacement, Viagra, life support, etc on anyone that wishes it.
When you look at the 3rd world, or 2nd world nations, their definition of medical is seeing a doctor after waiting in line for 3 hours, and get a 180 days supply of pills like steroid, cough syrup, etc.
On top of that, in the US, we have malpractice lawsuit that results in insurance overhead of 30% for the medical service providers, which achieves nothing for the average population in general, other than making lawyers on both side riches.
It is not public vs private care that bankrupt the work force and economy, but the expectation of quality that we want. You can only compete with other nations when you drop your standard and or close the loopholes that plague the system right now.
I'd think as we see the private system we have right now is clearly unaffordable when you need it the most (lower income population that are uninsured), and the public system as is will not be sustainable (medicare going to be bankrupt by the time many of us retire).
Will, as Tempest desire, moving the responsibility from Federal to State helps the situation? Of course not, because people move from state to state and it is just shuffling people and money around rather than solving the actual problems.
Getting rid of hefty malpractice lawsuit should be a high priority, then the limiting of abuse, removing waste (i.e. eliminating the prescription of a new drug that is only a mirror image of the patent free version is a waste and abuse), then we wouldn't have much to worry about public vs private.
As for me, I trust neither in the US of A, and I'm going to retire in a 3rd world country and pay medical expense out of pocket when my health is deteriorating.
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Getting malpractice contained is easy. You just need to apply the punitive measures directly to the malpracticing element, not just raise the risk rates for all. That is, he/she/it loses its right to practice (make $$$) or whatever other "punishment" that results in the loss to them and not just shifting costs back to the consumer of services.
Naturally, Tempest would prefer that bad practitioners poor performance be remedied via market forces. Those with living and vital patients will get paid ..those who maim and kill their patients will, via word of mouth from the surviving family, lose market share and be driven out of business.
The same with medical devices. Pace makers ...etc. Drugs too.
Naturally, Tempest would prefer that bad practitioners poor performance be remedied via market forces. Those with living and vital patients will get paid ..those who maim and kill their patients will, via word of mouth from the surviving family, lose market share and be driven out of business.
The same with medical devices. Pace makers ...etc. Drugs too.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
When you look at the 3rd world, or 2nd world nations, their definition of medical is seeing a doctor after waiting in line for 3 hours,
From what I have seen, that isn't true if you have a reasonable amount of money.
For instance, I needed to see a doctor about a badly sprained ankle in India last February. I took a taxi to a hospital, waited less than an hour, had x-rays taken, an examination by an orthopedic surgeon, cast put on and was out of there is about 3 hours. My total bill including medication was about $110. Everything was done very well (confirmed by my doctor when I got home), the only thing dodgy about it was the anti-inflmatory and pain killing medications he prescribed. Fortunately my travel kit had better alternatives.
The hospital was a regular Indian hospital, not a fancy tourist hospital. I was the only Westerner I saw there.
When you look at the 3rd world, or 2nd world nations, their definition of medical is seeing a doctor after waiting in line for 3 hours,
From what I have seen, that isn't true if you have a reasonable amount of money.
For instance, I needed to see a doctor about a badly sprained ankle in India last February. I took a taxi to a hospital, waited less than an hour, had x-rays taken, an examination by an orthopedic surgeon, cast put on and was out of there is about 3 hours. My total bill including medication was about $110. Everything was done very well (confirmed by my doctor when I got home), the only thing dodgy about it was the anti-inflmatory and pain killing medications he prescribed. Fortunately my travel kit had better alternatives.
The hospital was a regular Indian hospital, not a fancy tourist hospital. I was the only Westerner I saw there.
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Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
When you look at the 3rd world, or 2nd world nations, their definition of medical is seeing a doctor after waiting in line for 3 hours,
From what I have seen, that isn't true if you have a reasonable amount of money.
I don't see the US being much faster than what PandaBear cites for waiting times. I don't even think you can be seen faster if you apply any baksheesh to the triage nurse or clerical staff.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
When you look at the 3rd world, or 2nd world nations, their definition of medical is seeing a doctor after waiting in line for 3 hours,
From what I have seen, that isn't true if you have a reasonable amount of money.
I don't see the US being much faster than what PandaBear cites for waiting times. I don't even think you can be seen faster if you apply any baksheesh to the triage nurse or clerical staff.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
welcome 3rd world status.
That is the plan!
It would be funnier if it wasn't true.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
welcome 3rd world status.
That is the plan!
It would be funnier if it wasn't true.
More and more revenue is needed. Just another idea. We'll all be like the &%$#@ of California soon. The voters rejected their extreme wasteful ways so now they want the other 49 states to bail them out. Borrow borrow borrow every cause is worthy of a few billion.
The voters in California always vote for the stuff, but they won't vote to fund it. Same thing happens here. They need to get rid of referendums. The referendum process in CO has been fairly disastrous, especially the tax payer bill of rights. I know Tempest will drop by and praise it..............without knowing the details and how it's paralyzed our budget.
Well, thankfully the referendum process that allowed it has modified it, once the citizenry saw how it crippled the state and local budgets.
Well, thankfully the referendum process that allowed it has modified it, once the citizenry saw how it crippled the state and local budgets.
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The referendum system is a great system except for one fatal flaw. Voters are idjiots. They are worse than politicians when it come to dumping problems on future generations.
Exactly! We want it all.............but won't pay for it.
I find it quite funny...............and troubling, that when you open the yellow pages, it seems like the attorney section goes on forever! It literally occupies about a tenth of our yellow pages phone book.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Exactly! We want it all.............but won't pay for it.
This dead French dude was very prescient.
Quote:
A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it.
Alexis de Tocqueville
Quote:
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
And you were speaking of an excess of lawyers..
Quote:
The health of a democratic society may be measured by the quality of functions performed by private citizens.
Alexis de Tocqueville
Exactly! We want it all.............but won't pay for it.
This dead French dude was very prescient.
Quote:
A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it.
Alexis de Tocqueville
Quote:
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
And you were speaking of an excess of lawyers..
Quote:
The health of a democratic society may be measured by the quality of functions performed by private citizens.
Alexis de Tocqueville
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Originally Posted By: XS650
The referendum system is a great system except for one fatal flaw. Voters are idjiots. They are worse than politicians when it come to dumping problems on future generations.
Same story: "Hey, kid. It's either me ..or them three".
The dark comedy just keeps playing a game of top this.
The referendum system is a great system except for one fatal flaw. Voters are idjiots. They are worse than politicians when it come to dumping problems on future generations.
Same story: "Hey, kid. It's either me ..or them three".
The dark comedy just keeps playing a game of top this.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I thought taxing consumption was the ultimate "transparent", and "fair" tax scheme.
The Boortz / Linder fair tax proposal would be a much better tax scheme.
The VAT they are threatening us with now is on top of every other income, personal property, real property, excise, use, sales, transfer, employment, unemployment, fuel, road, gas, gas guzzler, luxury, fee, special assessment, and who knows how many countless other surcharges that are eating productive people alive.
But, it displaces nearly $1000/ month in health care insurance for the typical family.
Rarely do we see new taxes proposed that displace older ones or other fees. They just disappear into the gaping hole. This is different. It's not for health care for children whose single mothers are scraping by. Or for elderly who vote every time. Or Veterans. Or left handed people. Or any other fractionalized bloc. Everybody, including producers!
Picture your typical insurance company putzing around, denying claims, raising peoples' blood pressure with their antics. They move paper around but at the end of the day... was that sick person treated? Was a child educated? Was a ditch dug? Can we as a society point to that and say an improvement was made on our patch of land?
I don't care.
I don't want to pay an extra $7500-$15K more per car, or tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars extra per commercial project to pay for other people's health care.
If that makes me a bad person, sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. I've bought my own health care out of pocket my entire life as an adult and I can get it a heckuva lot cheaper than the VAT. There is no "value" in the value added tax for me. Now, if they want to DROP EVERY OTHER TAX, and go to the Fair Tax, I would support that implementation of a national sales tax.
At my thirty year reuninon, an acquaintence was telling me about his two boats and Harley. His wife, an old girlfriend, told me they didn't have health insurance. Why should anyone be taxed extra for twits that buy boats and Harleys instead of insurance? They shouldn't. I certainly don't want to be.
As for putzing around with insurance companies, I have first hand, hands on personal knowledge, of the relative ease of suing private insurance companies and government. I've done both, not just as a lawyer for clients, but I've been a party in each type of proceeding. Suing insurance companies is child's play, suing any level of government is well nigh impossible because of sovereign immunity.
The government steals astronomical amounts of money, and manages to waste even more than that. It needs to stop spending so much money. The welfare / nanny state needs to be cut back, not expanded.
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I thought taxing consumption was the ultimate "transparent", and "fair" tax scheme.
The Boortz / Linder fair tax proposal would be a much better tax scheme.
The VAT they are threatening us with now is on top of every other income, personal property, real property, excise, use, sales, transfer, employment, unemployment, fuel, road, gas, gas guzzler, luxury, fee, special assessment, and who knows how many countless other surcharges that are eating productive people alive.
But, it displaces nearly $1000/ month in health care insurance for the typical family.
Rarely do we see new taxes proposed that displace older ones or other fees. They just disappear into the gaping hole. This is different. It's not for health care for children whose single mothers are scraping by. Or for elderly who vote every time. Or Veterans. Or left handed people. Or any other fractionalized bloc. Everybody, including producers!
Picture your typical insurance company putzing around, denying claims, raising peoples' blood pressure with their antics. They move paper around but at the end of the day... was that sick person treated? Was a child educated? Was a ditch dug? Can we as a society point to that and say an improvement was made on our patch of land?
I don't care.
I don't want to pay an extra $7500-$15K more per car, or tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars extra per commercial project to pay for other people's health care.
If that makes me a bad person, sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. I've bought my own health care out of pocket my entire life as an adult and I can get it a heckuva lot cheaper than the VAT. There is no "value" in the value added tax for me. Now, if they want to DROP EVERY OTHER TAX, and go to the Fair Tax, I would support that implementation of a national sales tax.
At my thirty year reuninon, an acquaintence was telling me about his two boats and Harley. His wife, an old girlfriend, told me they didn't have health insurance. Why should anyone be taxed extra for twits that buy boats and Harleys instead of insurance? They shouldn't. I certainly don't want to be.
As for putzing around with insurance companies, I have first hand, hands on personal knowledge, of the relative ease of suing private insurance companies and government. I've done both, not just as a lawyer for clients, but I've been a party in each type of proceeding. Suing insurance companies is child's play, suing any level of government is well nigh impossible because of sovereign immunity.
The government steals astronomical amounts of money, and manages to waste even more than that. It needs to stop spending so much money. The welfare / nanny state needs to be cut back, not expanded.
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