Validity of the "4-ball" wear test in engine lubes

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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I've seen plenty of worn out rockers.


I've seen some, but far from plenty. And they weren't in Ford engines, either, which might explain why OVERKILL has never seen such a thing.
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On very rare occasions, a rocker would have to be replaced in the taxis, but that was rather rare.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: wannafbody
I recently read an article which suggests that EP products can be beneficial to engines as the rocker arms and some other components see high pressures.


I've never seen rockers wear out, even in high mileage and poorly maintained engines
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This isn't a challenge, just adding my differing experience to the mix.

I've seen plenty of worn out rockers.. even on well maintained engines. It was pretty customary to wear out the rocker bushings in 60-80K miles on a four cylinder Land Rover engines, for example. I was a LR dealer tech in the '80s and '90s and worked on them back into the '70s. In about 210,000 miles of driving my own Series IIA, I replaced rocker bushings twice. I was a 3K/3mo guy then, pretty anal about maintenance and (though I was pretty uneducated o oils then) most often used 20W50 Castrol or 10W40 Chevron Supreme. My general LR comments would hold true thru the '90s anyway, when my pretty vast experience with them was placed into suspended animation.

Along the same lines, I saw many bushed rocker arms that were worn out in my wrenching career that goes back to the late '60s. Hard to define the cause and effect since I wasn't really looking for any. Most times I was overhauling the engines at the time. Have seen many fewer problems with the stamped rocker with the ball pivots, but even then worn out rockers are not unusual.

Whether this experience means anything in light of today's better oils, I don't know.





Thanks for your input Jim
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My experience has been primarily with SBF and SBC's, I've never had a LR apart, so thank you for your perspective from that marque. I didn't realize this was as common as it seems.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I've seen plenty of worn out rockers.


I've seen some, but far from plenty. And they weren't in Ford engines, either, which might explain why OVERKILL has never seen such a thing.
wink.gif
On very rare occasions, a rocker would have to be replaced in the taxis, but that was rather rare.


Exactly. Perhaps I should have said I've never seen one in an SBF or SBC
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: theaveng
QSounds similar to what Royal Purple said about the 4-ball test this month. (That it's invalid to compare engine oil brands.)
Yet Royal Purple has used the "one armed bandit" in the past, which is equally useless.....
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So in other words we should just avoid all the MLM and other shady companies. We can't trust a single word out of their mouths.


lol
 
MLM's are what they are, a carefully couched money-grab. Keep in mind that the non-competitive prices they charge for their products are necessary due to the fact that commissions are paid to a variety of distributor levels. The last company for which I worked (inventory management) was an MLM. 45 cents of every dollar of revenue paid commissions and bottom line margin was only about 8%. So, while an MLM may have an excellent product it is usually going to end up so overpriced there is no economy in buying it. That is why they have to bring all their resources to bear to try to convince you that it's worth spending at least double what it would cost as a retail product.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I've seen plenty of worn out rockers.


I've seen some, but far from plenty. And they weren't in Ford engines, either, which might explain why OVERKILL has never seen such a thing.
wink.gif
On very rare occasions, a rocker would have to be replaced in the taxis, but that was rather rare.


You won't see many anymore. Everything in our fleet now is full roller bearing. All those need is an occasional splash of oil and they will outlive us all.
 
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Keep in mind that the non-competitive prices MLMs charge for their products are necessary due to the fact that commissions are paid to a variety of distributor levels..... 45 cents of every dollar of revenue pay commissions and bottom line margin was only about 8%. So, while an MLM may have an excellent product it is usually going to end up so overpriced there is no economy in buying it. That is why they have to bring all their resources to bear to try to convince you that it's worth spending at least double what it would cost as a retail product.
My experience with 2 MLMs is the same. I'd be willing to pay double for Amsoil filters and +2 dollars for their oil if they could PROVE they are better. But test-after-independent test does not show they are better than cheaper Mobil 1 or Pennzoil filters/synthetics.
 
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^Bingo! Back when Amsoil was just starting out in the early 70's they were about the only game in town. Now they have to show ANY test results they can find in which their products are "better" than the big names. Please do not take this as a statement that Amsoil products are not good. I have used them myself. They probably do not cost much more, if any more, than other name brand products.

I think they would do much better if they could ditch the MLM part and distribute through retail channels. Probably not going to happen, though. MLM's that become become "standard" businesses are few and far between. Metabolife actually did it years ago. They had to pay off their top distributors in the transformation.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Exactly. Perhaps I should have said I've never seen one in an SBF or SBC


I've seen some just about worn through, but certainly not on Fords, either.
wink.gif
Oh well, if one's doing a cam and lifter job, rockers aren't terribly expensive either if one or two are on their way out.
 
There are a number of ASTM and other bench tests to determine aspects of wear and friction.


Quote:
ASTM D4172 says this in the preamble: "This test method can be used to determine the relative wear preventive properties of lubricating fluids in sliding contact under the prescribed test conditions. No attempt has been made to correlate this test with balls in rolling contact. The user of this test method should determine to his own satisfaction whether results of this test procedure correlate with field performance or other bench test machines."



Notice the word "relative" in the above. You take a non-treated base oil or and additized oil with known charaterics and compare the RELATIVE values.

This test is mostly used in determining wear reduction of different additive types or combinations of chemistry.


ASTM D5183 sez:
"This test method can be used to determine the coefficient of friction of lubricating fluids under the prescribed test conditions. The user of this test method should determine to his own satisfaction whether results of this test method correlate with field performance or other bench test machines."


So don't discount the tests as they are useful to the tribologist but only for determining relative effacacies of different lubricants.
 
Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've never seen rockers wear out, even in high mileage and poorly maintained engines
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On my Volkswagen PD-TDI the rockers do not wear out, but instead the cam wears out. The high pressure lifters exert too much pressure and leaves scoring, so I can see how a strong oil would be beneficial.



It's the injectors that leave the scoring on the injector lobes

The valve lobes just seem to re machine themselves round

It seems to be the lifters that buckle and dish creating a rough surface which wears the lobes away

repeat after me

vorsprung durch teknic
 
Schaeffers 5w-40 was the ticket for those PD TDI cam wear issues. Their micron moly and penetro additves are really effective. I wonder how that oil would stack up to a comparable Amsoil product in a 4 ball wear test...
 
http://castroledge.co.nz/tested-to-perform/titanium-fluid-strength-technology --> here's why oil film strength is meaningful

By the way, can anyone please help me?
I really like how the Mobil 1 5w30 test results came out in http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30483
But Mobil is a brand that has WAY too much similar products
I would really appreciate it if anybuddy can tell me which one of these has the same formula or results as the one he tested so that I don't buy the wrong one
thank you very much!! ^^

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=266&t=2646102&p=1 -->Mobil 1 5W50 Excellent Wear Protection (Advanced Full Synthetic)
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?11090326871716 -->Mobil 1 5W50 The World’s Leading Synthetic Motor Oil (Fully Synthetic)
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21105110292802 -->Mobil 1 15W50 The World’s Leading Synthetic Motor Oil (Advanced Full Synthetic)
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21104081486555 -->Mobil 1 5W30 The World’s Leading Synthetic Mtoro Oil (Advanced Full Synthetic)

Does anyone know the difference between these Mobil 1 oils except for their viscosity?
Thanks a lot!!
 
Let them use color, or scent. Those are easily distinguished by the customer without requiring any testing equipment.

Originally Posted By: Garak
we do have to remember that the boutique oils had to differentiate themselves somehow from the mainstream companies, particularly when trying to explain why they didn't have the latest certifications.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Its a pretty useless test for engine oils.

It is a pretty useful test for greases and gear lubes.

This is why no major oil manufacturer uses it to test their oils. But they do use it (ASTM D-4172) to test their greases and gear oils.

It is a wow-factor test. It doesn't mean the companies who use it are selling a sub-par product and using smoke and mirrors, but the results are really not all that relevant to what takes place inside an internal combustion engine.

Another example is the "one armed bandit" machines that Shaeffers salesmen have used. Doesn't mean the oil is a bad product, but the performance of EP additives in an EP test has little to no relevance to the product's subsequent performance in a gasoline engine.

http://castroledge.co.nz/tested-to-perform/titanium-fluid-strength-technology --> here's why oil film strength is meaningful
Even Amsoil perform those kind of test http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf

By the way, can anyone please help me?
I really like how the Mobil 1 5w30 test results came out in http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30483
But Mobil is a brand that has WAY too much similar products
I would really appreciate it if anybuddy can tell me which one of these has the same formula or results as the one he tested so that I don't buy the wrong one
thank you very much!! ^^

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=266&t=2646102&p=1 -->Mobil 1 5W50 Excellent Wear Protection (Advanced Full Synthetic)
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?11090326871716 -->Mobil 1 5W50 The World’s Leading Synthetic Motor Oil (Fully Synthetic)
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21105110292802 -->Mobil 1 15W50 The World’s Leading Synthetic Motor Oil (Advanced Full Synthetic)
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21104081486555 -->Mobil 1 5W30 The World’s Leading Synthetic Mtoro Oil (Advanced Full Synthetic)
 
Truck havent had titanium or molybdenum and faced some of of the harshest job there is and motor lasted million of miles .i dont know today if they use it but they didnt for a long time.
 
Molekule hits the nail on the head. These tests are useful for lubricant chemists interested in screening or rating anti-wear and EP performance, but it is just one piece of information about an exceedingly complex product.

I could see the draw to using the 4-ball to rate and market AW/EP performance in race engines or flat-tappet engines - that is a market that cares a lot more about wear protection and generally uses short drain intervals.
 
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Truck havent had titanium or molybdenum and faced some of of the harshest job there is and motor lasted million of miles .i dont know today if they use it but they didnt for a long time.




What?
 
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