V.I. Revisited

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So I think most members are correct in automatically assuming thin oil flows faster than thick oil.

Of course, we can define flow very rigorously, and that's important. But, your point is important. When you look at those Imperial Oil videos showing the various HDEOs including the 0w30 in an engine at -30 or whatever ungodly temperature they chose, that's what a lot of people think about.

They're thinking of the 30 seconds it might take for the flow to start, and how it "looks" once it actually gets going. Of course, where I am, I pay more attention to MRV and the like than the average person.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So by "flow" you aren't referring to the traditional measurement of flow of "volume/time", but the ability to be pumped...once either can be pumped, the flow is the same...


And with that one sentence post, you've addressed the faulty assumptions underlying a host of thinking on this forum. Nicely done. Now if only it would sink in.

What faulty assumptions?
The statement is true but misleading nonetheless because of the proviso "once either can be pumped".
Even with a high VI 0W-20, the oil pump will still be in-pass diverting maximum oil flow at elevated rev's until oil temp's are close to normal.
At freezing temp's the difference in "oil flow" between a light oil such as TGMO 0W-20 (KV @ 32F 200cSt) and a heavy oil such as a 15w40 (KV@ 32F 1,300cSt) dino will be considerable.
On idle TGMO will not be in by-pass so the oil will be delivery will little delay to the camshaft at the top of the engine.
The 15w40 dino on the other hand will be solidly in by-pass mode drastically reducing the amount of oil that can be pumped up into the cylinder head.

So I think most members are correct in automatically assuming thin oil flows faster than thick oil.


I was referring specifically to the "superior flow" requirements of a 0W-20 over a 5W-20...they aren't "flow" requirements, but "pumpability" requirements...and have squat to do with a 15w40...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So by "flow" you aren't referring to the traditional measurement of flow of "volume/time", but the ability to be pumped...once either can be pumped, the flow is the same...

And how does that statement in any way add clarity to the layman's understanding of the difference between a 0W-20 and a 5W-20?
The fact of the matter is the reason that the OEM 0W-20s are specified over the 5W-20 grade has little to do with whether the oil will or will not pump at -40 degrees but rather the lower oil drag at more typical start-up temp's and during warm-up.
It is the very high VI difference that's responsible for that.

And yes I believe lighter oil does pump faster than heavier oil even below the OP by-pass point but not enough of a difference to be concerned about, as it pales compared to the reduced flow in by-pass mode.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And yes I believe lighter oil does pump faster than heavier oil even below the OP by-pass point but not enough of a difference to be concerned about, as it pales compared to the reduced flow in by-pass mode.


CATERHAM, you continually post your "beliefs" even when they contravene "science"...

Please, demonstrate where, and in fact how, a positive displacement pump pumps more with a lower viscosity below bypass operation.

If your "belief" is valid, then surely there's some science behind it.

You've accused me of having different rules of physics downunder, please demonstrate how your work.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The fact of the matter is the reason that the OEM 0W-20s are specified over the 5W-20 grade has little to do with whether the oil will or will not pump at -40 degrees but rather the lower oil drag at more typical start-up temp's and during warm-up.
It is the very high VI difference that's responsible for that.


Well why on Earth aren't the manufacturer's using VI as a parameter to direct the consumer to use the oil that works best, rather than the Cold Cranking and pumpability specs that are, and are defined by, the xW part of the viscosity rating ?

Why do their various oil recommendations (when they have them) have the expected ambient (starting temperature) as the selection for the xW parameter, rather than average trip length (as an approximation of percentage of time in warm-up versus operating OR starting temperature, as you've discounted both of those in your argument) ?

Once again...Viscosity Index is a dimensionless number comparing two actual physical properties, making it meaningless without first defining which of those properties that you want. And no where are manufacturers specifying VI as a performance parameter...

Edit
http://www.toyota.com/owners/web/pages/parts-service/parts?categoryId=32052&partNo=part9

Quote:
Many new Toyota models are certified for a new, zero weight synthetic lubrication standard, or 0W-20. This lower viscosity oil pumps better when cold,


Note, PUMPS, which is the xW definition, not flows.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

http://www.toyota.com/owners/web/pages/parts-service/parts?categoryId=32052&partNo=part9

Quote:
Many new Toyota models are certified for a new, zero weight synthetic lubrication standard, or 0W-20. This lower viscosity oil pumps better when cold,


Note, PUMPS, which is the xW definition, not flows.


While I agree about the difference between PUMP and FLOW with regard to the xW definitions, I think we might be a little pedantic when it comes to sharply defining these terms. A lower viscosity oil PUMPS more easily (not necessarily faster as positive displacement pumps, as Shannow pointed out are by their design constant flow machines - they pump the same volume regardless of discharge pressure.)
However, when comparing two oils, the one with the lower viscosity at any given temperature will always flow better (using the volume/time definition).

So as we get to cold temperatures, two oils which had the same viscosity at a warmer temp (you can use KV@100 or HTHS as your reference point) the one with the higher VI will flow better and pump more easily.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Well why on Earth aren't the manufacturer's using VI as a parameter to direct the consumer to use the oil that works best, rather than the Cold Cranking and pumpability specs that are, and are defined by, the xW part of the viscosity rating ?

Why do their various oil recommendations (when they have them) have the expected ambient (starting temperature) as the selection for the xW parameter, rather than average trip length (as an approximation of percentage of time in warm-up versus operating OR starting temperature, as you've discounted both of those in your argument) ?

Once again...Viscosity Index is a dimensionless number comparing two actual physical properties, making it meaningless without first defining which of those properties that you want. And no where are manufacturers specifying VI as a performance parameter...


OEM's are indirectly recommending higher VI oils in two ways
- First by recommending synthetic fluids, the OEM is putting value on higher VI as that is the only performance characteristic which separate a Group I+II base oil from a Group III (which most marketplace synthetics are made from).
- Second by creating their own oils (the TGMO which CATERHAM loves so much is a perfect example) which have very high VIs. In a perfect world, OEM's would require that only their recommended oil be used, however competition laws prevent this from being possible.

Additionally, the trend in engine oils is continually improving viscosity performance through increased VI, this is happening at all levels of the industry, so whether you want it or not, high VI is going to happen. Most consumers don't read any specifications, or even care so OEM's and oil marketers put their message where people will pay attention.

The HVI importance is not restricted only to engine oils, it has completely dominated the hydraulic oil market and is starting to become a critical performance spec of gear oils also.
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
A lower viscosity oil PUMPS more easily (not necessarily faster as positive displacement pumps, as Shannow pointed out are by their design constant flow machines - they pump the same volume regardless of discharge pressure.)
However, when comparing two oils, the one with the lower viscosity at any given temperature will always flow better (using the volume/time definition).


For a given discharge pressure, the lower viscosity oil will have a lower flow rate due to greater internal pump leakage...hard won experience having to go up a pump body size between 20C and 50C...

http://www.northern-pump.com/PDFs/gear101/Pump 101 Lesson 2.pdf

http://www.pumpscout.com/articles-expert-advice/gear-pump-sizing-tips-and-advice-aid245.html

When they start putting centrifugal pumps on car engines, the behaviour will be reversed, lower viscosity equals more flow.
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
The HVI importance is not restricted only to engine oils, it has completely dominated the hydraulic oil market and is starting to become a critical performance spec of gear oils also.


Another hard won lesson was that Bartran HV 32 became plain old ISO 24 with lots of floating junk when applied in turbocouplings...industry won't forget that one quickly, even with new super VII.

Another recent one is an ISO gear oil that goes in at 1000, and comes out 12 months later at under 450...in a 4RPM roller bearing.
 
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