Using just 2 snow tires like the good ole days
- Thread starter paulswagelock
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I'll only run sets of 4 snow tires on our cars. Our Fit has no weight whatsoever over the rear tires. On poor tires it fishtails horribly in the snow, to the point where it's undrivable much past 35 mph in the right, er, wrong, conditions. The Cruze's stability control lets it get a little out of line before kicking in. Having two great snows up front with two merely-adequate all-seasons out back would make for some violent corrections that just might leave the car worse off than being on 4 all-seasons.
There are three things to consider here:
1. Don't do it.
2. No really, don't do it.
3. For God's sake, don't do it.
Look, I know that most people on this forum are substantially better drivers than the average. Let me tell you a story about that...
TIA did a lot of testing last year at Nokian's Ivalo proving grounds for a video on winter tires, which is now available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQIU3ywj6g. (Look at about 5:00 for the section on 2 winter tires vs. 4.)
I happened to be at Ivalo the same day TIA was there, so I happen to know that during filming, a highly experienced Nokian winter test driver with only two winter tires on his vehicle completely lost control of the car and high-centered it onto a snowbank so effectively that it had to be winched out. That's a guy who does this for a living.
You never hear someone say, “I'm a really good soldier, so I think I'll wear bright orange instead of camo and I'll just be very careful.”
Tests have continually shown that putting on only 2 snow tires is literally (and I use that in an actual literal sense) much worse than not having snow tires. If you want to save money by putting on only 2 snow tires, think about saving even more money by not putting snow tires on at all. You'll actually be better off.
1. Don't do it.
2. No really, don't do it.
3. For God's sake, don't do it.
Look, I know that most people on this forum are substantially better drivers than the average. Let me tell you a story about that...
TIA did a lot of testing last year at Nokian's Ivalo proving grounds for a video on winter tires, which is now available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQIU3ywj6g. (Look at about 5:00 for the section on 2 winter tires vs. 4.)
I happened to be at Ivalo the same day TIA was there, so I happen to know that during filming, a highly experienced Nokian winter test driver with only two winter tires on his vehicle completely lost control of the car and high-centered it onto a snowbank so effectively that it had to be winched out. That's a guy who does this for a living.
You never hear someone say, “I'm a really good soldier, so I think I'll wear bright orange instead of camo and I'll just be very careful.”
Tests have continually shown that putting on only 2 snow tires is literally (and I use that in an actual literal sense) much worse than not having snow tires. If you want to save money by putting on only 2 snow tires, think about saving even more money by not putting snow tires on at all. You'll actually be better off.
If they call you about having two, could you just reply "I ran over a curb, popped a couple of tires, and the %$^$&$%^& tire shop won't replace them for free under their so-called warranty, so I just need a new pair so I can have the local guy install them for me."
I'm with everyone else, just run four; but it's your call, not Tirerack's.
I'm with everyone else, just run four; but it's your call, not Tirerack's.
Originally Posted By: paulswagelock
Ok, growing up I drove all rear wheel drive cars until I was late into my 20's. In the winter, sometimes we put 2 snow tires on the rear. Then I had a few front wheel drive cars, and put snow tires just on the front. The solution seemed fine, got me around fine, never felt dangerous.
Fast forward to now. Tirereack will not sell me 2 snow tires, only a matching set of 4. Does anyone still run just 2 snow tires on the front of a car? I understand the theoretical philosophy that having better traction on one axle is not ideal, but does everyone agree with that?
Any old schooler's out there still use just 2 snow tires?
Ah, the simpler, more natural days. Not to mention the foggy memories.
But I do remember the '70's - and my first FWD car - and the snow tires I put on it. Spun out a couple of times. It was clear even then that 4 winter tires is what was needed. I was just too foolish to acknowledge that. Or perhaps it was I didn't want to spend the money. Either way, I did a great job of rationalizing the problem away.
But today, there is a whole lot of hungry lawyers who have learned they can make a lot of money by suing companies - and tire dealers are not immune to this. While this doesn't affect me personally, it does affect how a savvy business man might react.
Ok, growing up I drove all rear wheel drive cars until I was late into my 20's. In the winter, sometimes we put 2 snow tires on the rear. Then I had a few front wheel drive cars, and put snow tires just on the front. The solution seemed fine, got me around fine, never felt dangerous.
Fast forward to now. Tirereack will not sell me 2 snow tires, only a matching set of 4. Does anyone still run just 2 snow tires on the front of a car? I understand the theoretical philosophy that having better traction on one axle is not ideal, but does everyone agree with that?
Any old schooler's out there still use just 2 snow tires?
Ah, the simpler, more natural days. Not to mention the foggy memories.
But I do remember the '70's - and my first FWD car - and the snow tires I put on it. Spun out a couple of times. It was clear even then that 4 winter tires is what was needed. I was just too foolish to acknowledge that. Or perhaps it was I didn't want to spend the money. Either way, I did a great job of rationalizing the problem away.
But today, there is a whole lot of hungry lawyers who have learned they can make a lot of money by suing companies - and tire dealers are not immune to this. While this doesn't affect me personally, it does affect how a savvy business man might react.
It's possible to drive with 2 snows on the drive wheels only... but driving fast? forget about it.
It's like driving with chains. Typically on the drive wheels... and you're going 30 mph tops and you need to be gentle with inputs
It's like driving with chains. Typically on the drive wheels... and you're going 30 mph tops and you need to be gentle with inputs
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
It's possible to drive with 2 snows on the drive wheels only... but driving fast? forget about it.
It's like driving with chains. Typically on the drive wheels... and you're going 30 mph tops and you need to be gentle with inputs
I drove a Taurus with winter tires only on the front once. It OK on dry roads but when you hit ice or compacted snow there is almost no way to keep the back end where it should be unless accelerating.
It's possible to drive with 2 snows on the drive wheels only... but driving fast? forget about it.
It's like driving with chains. Typically on the drive wheels... and you're going 30 mph tops and you need to be gentle with inputs
I drove a Taurus with winter tires only on the front once. It OK on dry roads but when you hit ice or compacted snow there is almost no way to keep the back end where it should be unless accelerating.
Originally Posted By: AboutTires
TIA did a lot of testing last year at Nokian's Ivalo proving grounds for a video on winter tires, which is now available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQIU3ywj6g.
I see they repeated the old saw ".... the best practice is to maintain the speed rating on the placard" for winter tires. At least they noted that winter tires may not be available in your size at the speed rating on the placard.
They also correctly note that it is acceptable to place two winter tires only on the rear of a RWD vehicle. The issue of hydroplaning is really moot for the RWD vehicle, which is why we could run them back only when RWD was the dominant configuration.
If you're an idiot and overdrive the front tires into an "understeer" situation, which really means "no steer", it's Darwinian survival of the fittest at work, and next winter you may not be around to slam into those of who can actually drive.
TIA did a lot of testing last year at Nokian's Ivalo proving grounds for a video on winter tires, which is now available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQIU3ywj6g.
I see they repeated the old saw ".... the best practice is to maintain the speed rating on the placard" for winter tires. At least they noted that winter tires may not be available in your size at the speed rating on the placard.
They also correctly note that it is acceptable to place two winter tires only on the rear of a RWD vehicle. The issue of hydroplaning is really moot for the RWD vehicle, which is why we could run them back only when RWD was the dominant configuration.
If you're an idiot and overdrive the front tires into an "understeer" situation, which really means "no steer", it's Darwinian survival of the fittest at work, and next winter you may not be around to slam into those of who can actually drive.
How about a little different take on this subject?
What about 2 highly effective winter tires on the front, like Nokian Hakka R2's, and 2 mediocre winter tires on the back, like Michelin Xi2's?
What about 2 highly effective winter tires on the front, like Nokian Hakka R2's, and 2 mediocre winter tires on the back, like Michelin Xi2's?
Originally Posted By: lyle
How about a little different take on this subject?
What about 2 highly effective winter tires on the front, like Nokian Hakka R2's, and 2 mediocre winter tires on the back, like Michelin Xi2's?
I think you're asking for trouble with that setup...for the same reason: unequal traction that can make the car uncontrollable, even in the hands of an experienced driver who knows that it's set up that way (like the Nokian test driver).
I love the analogy with blaze orange and camo! It's the same logic: "I've done this and it worked" ... but that doesn't make it a good idea. I can light my charcoal grill with gasoline and a match...but just because I didn't flash burn my face off doesn't make it a safe practice...
How about a little different take on this subject?
What about 2 highly effective winter tires on the front, like Nokian Hakka R2's, and 2 mediocre winter tires on the back, like Michelin Xi2's?
I think you're asking for trouble with that setup...for the same reason: unequal traction that can make the car uncontrollable, even in the hands of an experienced driver who knows that it's set up that way (like the Nokian test driver).
I love the analogy with blaze orange and camo! It's the same logic: "I've done this and it worked" ... but that doesn't make it a good idea. I can light my charcoal grill with gasoline and a match...but just because I didn't flash burn my face off doesn't make it a safe practice...
Originally Posted By: lyle
How about a little different take on this subject?
What about 2 highly effective winter tires on the front, like Nokian Hakka R2's, and 2 mediocre winter tires on the back, like Michelin Xi2's?
In this case, it's similar to running staggered tires (and might actually be an option for a car meant to run staggered tires that's running a square set of snows). If you put the better snows in the back, you'll just bias it a bit towards understeer. However, if the car is set up for some imbalance in tire grip (such as a staggered setup), it'll be fine. If the car is set up to run square tires, it'll throw the balance off (in either a good or bad way depending on how the car behaves normally). If it's not a super-huge grip difference like all seasons vs good snows, it won't be a safety problem.
How about a little different take on this subject?
What about 2 highly effective winter tires on the front, like Nokian Hakka R2's, and 2 mediocre winter tires on the back, like Michelin Xi2's?
In this case, it's similar to running staggered tires (and might actually be an option for a car meant to run staggered tires that's running a square set of snows). If you put the better snows in the back, you'll just bias it a bit towards understeer. However, if the car is set up for some imbalance in tire grip (such as a staggered setup), it'll be fine. If the car is set up to run square tires, it'll throw the balance off (in either a good or bad way depending on how the car behaves normally). If it's not a super-huge grip difference like all seasons vs good snows, it won't be a safety problem.
Great information, thanks.
I will run 4 snow tires on it, I have been convinced.
I will run 4 snow tires on it, I have been convinced.
What a bunch of baloney!! I'm in central Michigan right now visiting family.. There is 9 feet of snow and it was -5 this AM with a wind chill of -19.. I driving my southern car with street tires. I stay off the road until the plow goes by. No off-roading for me.
Wayne
Wayne
Originally Posted By: Oldmoparguy1
What a bunch of baloney!! I'm in central Michigan right now visiting family.. There is 9 feet of snow and it was -5 this AM with a wind chill of -19.. I driving my southern car with street tires. I stay off the road until the plow goes by. No off-roading for me.
Wayne
But not with winter and regular tires mixed.
You are better running regular tires that mixing them. That's the point of this thread I hope.
What a bunch of baloney!! I'm in central Michigan right now visiting family.. There is 9 feet of snow and it was -5 this AM with a wind chill of -19.. I driving my southern car with street tires. I stay off the road until the plow goes by. No off-roading for me.
Wayne
But not with winter and regular tires mixed.
You are better running regular tires that mixing them. That's the point of this thread I hope.
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