Using HIDs for high beams

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Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
The other reason for not wanting HIDs as high beams is that they take a few seconds to "warm up" and come to full brightness. If your low beams turn off when your high beams come on, then you might have a few seconds of relatively darkness, not a good thing when driving down the road !


While there is a warm-up time to reach full brightness, most OEM quality ballasts start the bulb with a brightness greater than a halogen bulb and go up in intensity from there.

Cheap, non-OEM quality ballasts definately take longer to get the bulb to full intensity.

The OEM ballasts also minimize the startup flash that HIDs have.

(I have 5 vehicles with HID, 2 are factory equipped, all use various OEM ballasts on the headlamps, Phillips on the driving lights)
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Anybody came across dual filament HIR ?


I wish. I would have been all over those instead of cobbling together headlight harnesses for dual-filament bulbs.
 
I think I am reading that the true HIR's are no longer available but Phillips is selling something that performs similarly. Which would be brighter, the Phillips HIR's or a set of HID's.

Again, I am looking to upgrade the highbeams ONLY, not low beams. And I will not be buying any headlights with shutters, etc.
 
Of course HID would have the potential to be brighter as the output is greater. HIR run ~2400 lumens, where an HID bulb is ~2800-3200 lumens.

One other thing that has not been discussed is that the high beam enclosure has optics designed for a halogen bulb. Placing an HID bulb in there will not produce the designed beam pattern. It will be very similar to placing an HID bulb in the low beam enclosure the light will spew forth relatively uncontrolled. Since an HIR bulb has the same filament placement as the stock 9005 bulb the correctly designed beam pattern remains intact. I would rather have controlled light with slightly lower intensity, than a brighter light not aimed where it should...especially when its a matter or spotting critters or road variations at speed.
 
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I understand that the reflector is not optimized for HIDs but if I was just looking for as much light as possible would it be a problem? Or would the light pattern be counter-productive to good vision at night? I do not know anything about headlights so I apologize if my questions are dumb.
 
Originally Posted By: Scott_Tucker
I understand that the reflector is not optimized for HIDs but if I was just looking for as much light as possible would it be a problem? Or would the light pattern be counter-productive to good vision at night? I do not know anything about headlights so I apologize if my questions are dumb.


The HID kit would produce more lumens. It would also throw that light around helter-skelter since the arc that produces the light is not in the same place or configuration as the original halogen bulb. The HIR bulb has the filament in the same place and configuration as the stock bulb. While a HIR bulb produces less light, it makes much better use of the light it produces.

I had a set of HIR1 high beams in an old car, and they were amazingly bright. I didn't wish for more light with them installed.
 
Originally Posted By: Scott_Tucker
I understand that the reflector is not optimized for HIDs but if I was just looking for as much light as possible would it be a problem? Or would the light pattern be counter-productive to good vision at night? I do not know anything about headlights so I apologize if my questions are dumb.


In every case, the increase in illumination with a HID conversion from halogen bulbs is huge. Thats where the problems come from, the extreme brightness. In a high beam application, that's not a problem.

All the people talking about problems with optics have no idea what they are talking about. Im sure there are some problem reflector assemblies for HID, but every single vehicle nowdays has a specific headlight capsule which are all different in size and shape to fit the vehicle and meet the desired asthetics. To make a blanket statement about all the different configurations obviously is wrong. Problems do arise in driving light applications where the bulb is not shielded or the OE buld was end coated. A HID bulb is way too bright to run unshielded.

I have actual experience installing HID bulbs on my and other peoples vehicles. I doubt the armchair mechanics commenting have ever installed HID lighting.
 
Originally Posted By: Scott_Tucker
What is meant by a 'headlight capsule'?


He's likely referring to the bulb.

As far as an HID retrofit into a high beam housing, as long as it doesn't dump a ton of light onto the road close to the vehicle (bad for distance vision), it shouldn't hurt your seeing abilities. However, depending on where some of that light ends up, some of it may be wasted.
 
Originally Posted By: mikered30
Isn't installing aftermarket HIDs illegal in all 50 states?


If installed in daily driving lights (Hi/Lo)that were halogen originally, then, yes, it is illegal. That's why some sellers of the HID kits try to protect themselves by saying "for off-road use only".

If it is not a primary offense I do not know if cars with illegal HIDs can be pulled over. Same with seat belts. In many states you need to break rules of the road, like fail to signal, to be stopped and THEN you can be cited for the seat belt non-use.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: Scott_Tucker
I understand that the reflector is not optimized for HIDs but if I was just looking for as much light as possible would it be a problem? Or would the light pattern be counter-productive to good vision at night? I do not know anything about headlights so I apologize if my questions are dumb.


In every case, the increase in illumination with a HID conversion from halogen bulbs is huge. Thats where the problems come from, the extreme brightness. In a high beam application, that's not a problem.

All the people talking about problems with optics have no idea what they are talking about. Im sure there are some problem reflector assemblies for HID, but every single vehicle nowdays has a specific headlight capsule which are all different in size and shape to fit the vehicle and meet the desired asthetics. To make a blanket statement about all the different configurations obviously is wrong. Problems do arise in driving light applications where the bulb is not shielded or the OE buld was end coated. A HID bulb is way too bright to run unshielded.

I have actual experience installing HID bulbs on my and other peoples vehicles. I doubt the armchair mechanics commenting have ever installed HID lighting.


Unfortunately when it comes to light...is ALL about optics. High beam, low beam even flash lights. The better the optics the better the performance. I have merely quoted or conveyed what those in the industry have studied and brought into law.

Daniel Stern is no armchair mechanic. He advises DOT and has credentials in the automotive lighting industry and in groups which evaluate and influence lighting standards all over the world.

...Where are your credentials again in the lighting field?

BTW, just because one has had experience installing HID doesn't qualify them to comment on optical legitimacy. Until one can put up grids showing photometric beam patterns and light meter readings to illustrate your findings, we'll leave it to the pros.
 
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Originally Posted By: mikered30
Isn't installing aftermarket HIDs illegal in all 50 states?


Every state has it's own code. Police enforce state law and and appear in state court rather than federal court. Some federal law can be incorporated by reference into state law as specifically stated in the state code.

Here is a test. Using Oregon code, what section would you be charged under?
Here is the code:
816.050 Headlights; rules. Each of the following is a requirement for headlights as described:

(1) On vehicles required to be equipped with two or more headlights under ORS 816.320 and 816.330 the headlights shall be equally distributed on each side of the front of the vehicle. This subsection does not apply to motorcycles and mopeds.

(2) Headlights shall show a continuously burning light except that:

(a) When permitted under ORS 814.320, headlights for motorcycles or mopeds may have an upper beam that can be modulated between a high and lower brightness at a rate of 200 to 280 pulses per minute.

(b) A federally approved headlight flashing system may be used as emergency vehicle lights on police, fire, emergency or ambulance vehicles.

(3) Headlights shall show a white light described in Standard Number 108 of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.

(4) Headlights shall show the light forward.

(5) The Department of Transportation shall adopt and enforce rules establishing minimum standards and specifications for headlights. The rules shall conform, insofar as practicable, to safety standards and specifications for vehicle lighting issued by the federal government or to standards and recommendations established by the Society of Automotive Engineers.

(6) When multiple beam headlights are used or when headlights are used in combination with auxiliary lights or passing lights, the lights shall be arranged on the vehicle so that the selection between distributions of light projected to different elevations may be selected by the driver at will or so that the selection can be made automatically.

(7) Headlights shall be aimed in accordance with rules adopted by the department. If headlights provide only a single distribution of light and are not supplemented by auxiliary lights, the single beam headlights shall be so aimed that when the vehicle is not loaded, none of the high intensity portion of the light shall, at a distance of 25 feet ahead of the vehicle, project higher than five inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes, or higher than 42 inches above the level on which the vehicle stands at a distance of 75 feet ahead of the vehicle.

(8) The intensity of the light of single beam headlights shall be sufficient to reveal persons and vehicles upon a street or highway at a distance of at least 200 feet ahead of the vehicle to which they are attached.

(9) Headlights that are required under ORS 816.320 and 816.330 must be mounted, adjusted and aimed in accordance with standards adopted by the department under ORS 816.010.

(10) Headlights that are required under ORS 816.320 and 816.330 and any part for such headlight that tends to change the original design or performance must be of a type that complies with standards adopted by the department under ORS 816.010.

(11) Single beam headlights that are not supplemented by auxiliary lights shall be permitted on a motor vehicle in lieu of multiple beam headlights only if the single distribution of lights complies with any requirements for single beam headlights under this section. [1983 c.338 §458 (2); 1985 c.16 §240 (2); 1985 c.69 §1 (2); 1985 c.71 §4 (2); 1985 c.393 §13 (2); 1985 c.420 §6 (2); 1989 c.402 §8; 1991 c.769 §1; 2003 c.158 §20]

PROHIBITED LIGHTS



816.350 Prohibitions on number and kind of lights for certain vehicles. This section establishes requirements for ORS 816.360. When specific types of lighting equipment are mentioned by this section, those types are types described under ORS 816.040 to 816.290. Except as allowed under this section or where an exemption under ORS 816.370 specifically provides otherwise, a vehicle that does not comply with this section is in violation of ORS 816.360:

(1)(a) A motorcycle may not be equipped with more than three headlights.

(b) A moped may not be equipped with more than two headlights.

(2) Except when blue or purple inserts are allowed under ORS 816.080, 816.100 or 816.120, no vehicle may have any lighting equipment mounted on the rear that displays or reflects any color other than red except for the following lighting equipment:

(a) Turn signal lights.

(b) Rear mounted lighting systems.

(c) Registration plate lights.

(d) Back-up lights.

(3) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, only the following types of vehicles may be equipped with public vehicle warning lights:

(a) A vehicle operated by the state, or any county, city, district or other political subdivision of the state, and used for the construction, improvement, repair, maintenance, operation or patrol of any public highway.

(b) Vehicles operated by a public utility or telecommunications utility involved in maintenance, repair or construction of their facilities along public rights of way.

(4) Vehicles operated by a police officer and used for law enforcement may be equipped with any type of police lights, but only these vehicles may be equipped with blue lights.

(5) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, only a vehicle operated by a weighmaster or motor carrier enforcement officer proceeding under the authority of ORS 810.530 may be equipped with weighmaster warning lights.

(6) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, only tow vehicles may be equipped with tow vehicle warning lights.

(7) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, only a motor vehicle escort accompanying a motor vehicle carrying or towing a load of a size or description not permitted under ORS 815.160, 815.170, 818.020, 818.060, 818.090, 818.110, 818.160 and 818.300 may be equipped with a pilot vehicle warning light.

(8) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, only the following vehicles may be equipped with bus safety lights:

(a) School buses.

(b) Worker transport buses.

(c) Vehicles issued a permit under ORS 818.260.

(9) No vehicle except a vehicle used in active service transporting United States Mail may be equipped with mail delivery lights.

(10) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, fire company warning lights may only be used on the following vehicles:

(a) An emergency vehicle.

(b) A vehicle authorized under a permit issued under ORS 818.250.

(c) Funeral lead vehicles and funeral escort vehicles used to escort funeral processions.

(11) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, no vehicle or equipment may display or carry any lighting equipment or device with a red light visible from directly in front of the vehicle or equipment.

(12) Except as otherwise allowed under this section, all flashing lights are prohibited on all motor vehicles on any street or highway except for turn signals, hazard lights and headlight flashing systems described in ORS 816.050.

(13) No motor vehicle other than an emergency vehicle may be equipped with more than one spotlight.

(14) No motor vehicle may be equipped with more than two cowl or fender lights.

(15) A vehicle at the scene of an actual or potential release of hazardous materials may be equipped with warning lights as described in ORS 816.280 (1)(d).

(16) A vehicle being used by medical examiners to reach the scene of an accident or of a death investigation may be equipped with warning lights as described in ORS 816.280 (1)(e).

(17) A vehicle may be equipped with covers on any of the following lights if the covers are removed when the lights are required to be in operation:

(a) Headlights under ORS 816.050.

(b) Taillights under ORS 816.080.

(c) Brake lights under ORS 816.100.

(d) Turn signals under ORS 816.120.

(e) Reflectors under ORS 816.180.

(18) A commercial vehicle, as defined in ORS 801.210 (2), may be equipped with commercial vehicle warning lights. [1983 c.338 §464; 1985 c.16 §243; 1985 c.71 §6; 1987 c.447 §140; 1989 c.402 §13; 1991 c.482 §17; 1991 c.769 §2; 1993 c.741 §105; 1997 c.492 §4; 1999 c.497 §3; 2003 c.118 §1; 2003 c.158 §31; 2003 c.245 §4]

816.010 Authority to adopt and enforce standards for lighting equipment; testing for compliance with standards. (1) The Department of Transportation shall adopt and enforce minimum standards for vehicle lighting equipment under ORS 816.040 to 816.290 including installation, adjustment and aiming and adjustment when in use on motor vehicles.

(2) As federal regulations concerning vehicle lighting equipment are subsequently amended or repealed, the department may consider subsequent federal vehicle lighting equipment standards and adopt standards with respect to any vehicle lighting equipment applicable to the same aspect of performance of the vehicle lighting equipment if the department determines that the subsequent federal standards are practicable, provide an objective standard and meet the need for vehicle safety.

(3) When the department has reason to believe that any lighting equipment, as it is being sold commercially, does not comply with established standards, the department may have the device tested by a recognized testing laboratory to determine if the lighting equipment complies with the standards adopted under this section.

(4) Standards adopted under this section must be consistent with vehicle standards established under federal regulations or by the Society of Automotive Engineers.

(5) Standards adopted by the department under this section supersede any equipment provision of the vehicle code applicable to the same aspect of performance that conflicts with a specific provision of a standard adopted by the department under this section with respect to compliance with safety standards in effect at the time of sale.

(6) The department shall continue to adopt equipment standards as required under other sections of the vehicle code if there are no standards under this section.

(7) The department may at any time purchase in the open market and submit to the testing laboratory one or more sets of any lighting equipment, and if the lighting equipment, upon testing, fails to meet the standards adopted for lighting equipment under this section, the department shall enforce the penalties set forth in ORS 816.030 to 816.300.

(8) Prohibitions and penalties relating to the standards adopted under this section are set forth in ORS 816.030 to 816.300. [1983 c.338 §447; 2003 c.158 §17]
 
According to the Oregon statue, aftermarket HIDs are illegal, they fail to pass OSR 816.057 and OSR 816.0510.

Purple HIDs also fail to pass OSR 816.053.

Installing aftermarket HIDs in housing not designed for it illigal according to Federal Standard 108, S7.8.5.3 :
"S7.8.5.3 Visual/optical aiming. Each visually/optically aimable headlamp shall be designed to conform to the following requirements: (a) Vertical aim, lower beam. Each lower beam headlamp shall have a cutoff in the beam pattern. It may be either on the left side or the right side of the optical axis, but once chosen for a particular headlamp system's design, the side chosen for the cutoff shall not be changed for any headlamps intended to be used as replacements for those system's headlamps. (1) Vertical position of cutoff. The headlamp shall be aimed vertically so that the cutoff is on the left side, at 0.4 degree down from the H-H line, or on the right side, at the H-H line. (2) Vertical gradient. The gradient of the cutoff measured at either 2.5 degrees L or 2.0 degrees R shall be not less than 0.13 based on the procedure of S7.8.5.3, paragraph (a)(5). (3) Horizontal position of the cutoff. The width shall be not less than two degrees, with not less than two degrees of its actual width centered at either 2.5 degrees L, or 2.0 degrees R. (4) Maximum inclination of cutoff. The vertical location of the highest gradient at the ends of the minimum width shall be within ±0.2 degree of the vertical location of the maximum gradient measured at the appropriate vertical line (at either 2.5 degrees L for a left side cutoff, or 2.0 degrees R for a right side cutoff.) "

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=571.108
 
I'm pretty sure the legality of HID's has been argued to death on this site. I think the bottom line is, in the US they are NOT LEGAL.

That said, most people that install them are not concerned with their legality.

As I stated before, I WILL NOT be installing them on my low beams so I won't be blinding or annoying the heck out of everyone when I'm driving.

They would be installed on the highs only. I drive in mountainous territory with sparsely populated roads and am worried about deer and sasquatches running in the road and would like better visibility. I am very responsible about turning off my high beams when another car is coming.

I see it kind of like speeding. If you do it responsibly, and within reason, with a car and driver that are capable of it you are neither endangering other peoples lives nor are you likely to get a ticket. If I use them in a responsible manner and don't use them around the police it should not be an issue. However, my real question is would it achieve my goals of increased visibility, or are there better alternatives?
 
Honestly, a set of GOOD driving lights on the front bumper, triggered to turn on and off with the high beams might help as much or more, depending on the setup. It's also probably easier to find something with good optics, rather than trying to work within what the factory provided.
 
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