Does anybody know how excessive TBN might affect the differences in engine materials/construction? A guy at a non-sponsoring analysis lab (not a chemist) told me to be careful running Delvac 1 in my gasoline engine due to it being too basic. (I hope I'm phrasing this correctly!) He said it could attack & damage stuff that regular motor oil wouldn't.
using diesel engine oils in gas engines, good or bad?
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Caustic embrittlement of the steel would be really extreme, and caustic attack of the bearings and journals would be something like acid attack.
I don't think that either is likely with most diesel lubes, and not at all likely with one rated API-SL, including Delvac 1.
"For all automotive engines presently
in use. Introduced July 1, 2001.
"SL oils are designed to provide better
high-temperature deposit control and
lower oil consumption."
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf
Ken
[ January 22, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
I don't think that either is likely with most diesel lubes, and not at all likely with one rated API-SL, including Delvac 1.
"For all automotive engines presently
in use. Introduced July 1, 2001.
"SL oils are designed to provide better
high-temperature deposit control and
lower oil consumption."
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf
Ken
[ January 22, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
Brand/TBN
Amsoil 15W-40 Diesel and Marine Oil = 11.78
Amsoil 0W-30 = 12.8
Mobil 1 SS 5W-30 = 12.5
Mobil 1 0W-40 = 10.02
Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 = 12.5
I don't see a significant difference in TBN between all these products, so I don't see why having a high TBN would be bad for gas motors.
Greg,
The guy you talked to doesn't know what he's talking about ....I would certainly not run a 30 TBN diesel oil intended to be used in Marine diesels that burn bunker oil, but Delvac 1 would not be a problem. It actually has fairly low additive treat levels for a HD diesel oil, which is one reason why I consistently recommend it for gas engines as well.
Ted
The guy you talked to doesn't know what he's talking about ....I would certainly not run a 30 TBN diesel oil intended to be used in Marine diesels that burn bunker oil, but Delvac 1 would not be a problem. It actually has fairly low additive treat levels for a HD diesel oil, which is one reason why I consistently recommend it for gas engines as well.
Ted
Excellent meaty discussion! Are there other factors to consider?
Try it this way- what goes into an oil to make it HDD compatible? Are any of these constituents likely to be harmful to gas motors?
RE: TBN- as I understand it (could be way wrong, wouldn't be the first time
) TBN is NOT the same as pH, but rather a measure of how well buffered the oil is to acidification. The oil pH could be close to neutral, and while adding acid would cause the TBN to drop the overall oil pH wouldn't drift until the TBN were near 0...
TIA,
Robert
Try it this way- what goes into an oil to make it HDD compatible? Are any of these constituents likely to be harmful to gas motors?
RE: TBN- as I understand it (could be way wrong, wouldn't be the first time
TIA,
Robert
These comments, included in a separate post, were actually meant for here:
This post stated that Mobil sells the only GF-3 qualified XW-40 oil. I queried Mobil on the subject. Here's the reply I received:
Q: Isn't the indication on this page (Mobil 1® with SuperSyn Synthetic Motor Oil) that the SAE 0W-40 grade meets GF-3 incorrect? Isn't the "hot" temperature grade limited to SAE 30 rather than 40? If not, why doesn't the SAE 0W-40 product show up on the Starburst section of this (API license) page? Thanks!
A: Thanks for your request. Mobil 1 0W-40 meets the ILSAC GF-3 (energy conserving) requirement. There is no viscosity limitation per se to meet ILSAC GF-3; the oil must pass the API Engine Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test. This test was passed for the Mobil 1 0W-40 SAE viscosity grade after passing results had been obtained for the other three SAE viscosity grades as shown on the API EOLCS license Internet web site. Unfortunately, I am unable to determine from the API EOLCS license Internet web site the specific date for which the information is current; I will make an inquiry to determine when the site will reflect current information.
MJRoe
Technical Support Engineer
I use Delo 15w40 in several of my Gasoline engines, only using the Supreme in my two Fords where I need 5w30. As long as it carries the combined rating, there is no problem, and I prefer it to the gasoline only oils as it has more detergent and more zinc/phos.
There are concerns that excess zinc and Phos can damage the catalytic converters, but some studies I have seen break this down and say it is the evaporation rate of the additives, not the quantity. According to that logic the Delo would be a good choice, as the analisis I have shows great retention. I'm sure there are other oils that can do the same (although I've seen some that have dropped 40% of their additives in 20,000 km)
There are concerns that excess zinc and Phos can damage the catalytic converters, but some studies I have seen break this down and say it is the evaporation rate of the additives, not the quantity. According to that logic the Delo would be a good choice, as the analisis I have shows great retention. I'm sure there are other oils that can do the same (although I've seen some that have dropped 40% of their additives in 20,000 km)
Gee Widman, we thought we'd lost you.
I haven't seen a diesel/gas oil analysis yet where the zinc/phos was above 1.5% which used to be a typical, good upper limit. Current 15W40 additive levels are certainly lower than what Amsoil uses ... and I haven't yet heard of deposit formation with that stuff or any oil for that matter.
I wouldn't worry about it. I use this stuff in all my lawn & garden equipment ... either Delo 400 or Schaeffer 7000 Supreme blend.
--- Bror Jace
I haven't seen a diesel/gas oil analysis yet where the zinc/phos was above 1.5% which used to be a typical, good upper limit. Current 15W40 additive levels are certainly lower than what Amsoil uses ... and I haven't yet heard of deposit formation with that stuff or any oil for that matter.
I wouldn't worry about it. I use this stuff in all my lawn & garden equipment ... either Delo 400 or Schaeffer 7000 Supreme blend.
--- Bror Jace
I see that an oil rated both as API Csomething and Ssomething shouldn't be harmful to a gas engine. I got involved with the viscosity and the extra additives in a diesel oil but couldn't find a 10w 30 synthetic diesel to list also SJ or something close. And here's what I've done just a week before.
With a brave attempt that could only be exclusive to the unaware I've changed with a diesel only oil. This is an old (but intact) GM 60deg V6 with hydraulic lifters.
To this time I've always used Mobil non-synth 5w 30 with ~3500km intervals, and wondered if 10w 30 would make it even quieter (especially at the approaching summertime) since 10w 30 should be allright yearlong according to the manual for my climate. Indeed it is quieter for the first few moments but there's this knocking sound appears after a while that one would definitely think that this is a diesel engine. This frightening sound is present only at the lower rpms. Engine is as smooth as before on highway speeds but not quieter, and I feel it is slightly more peppy like anytime you'd feel after changing an old oil.
The oil is branded as Ford, I think Elf produces it. Has the API CH-4, ACEA E5 and (Ford WSS M2C 921 A) specs. No SF or something. Dipstick says use SF oil only (yes it was back in '84) so I looked at least the SF level until recently. I thought that since the CH-4 is a recent spec and SF is a really older one so it 'might' be allright. But these frightening sounds indicates the opposite.
I gave the oil one week/100km chance. It didn't get either even louder or more silent. The sound is just like a diesel engine's sound so it makes me to wonder if the 'diesel oil' and the 'diesel sound' coincidence has a meaning. Because it is just the sound, no drivability problems at all.
This was my naive report about a diesel-only oil on a GM V6. My question is that despite the sound could this oil do the job, or should I change it ASAP this weekend?
I like this machine, please don't hesitate to imply or directly write the extend of the stupidity if it is so.
[ April 05, 2003, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: occimacinance ]
With a brave attempt that could only be exclusive to the unaware I've changed with a diesel only oil. This is an old (but intact) GM 60deg V6 with hydraulic lifters.
To this time I've always used Mobil non-synth 5w 30 with ~3500km intervals, and wondered if 10w 30 would make it even quieter (especially at the approaching summertime) since 10w 30 should be allright yearlong according to the manual for my climate. Indeed it is quieter for the first few moments but there's this knocking sound appears after a while that one would definitely think that this is a diesel engine. This frightening sound is present only at the lower rpms. Engine is as smooth as before on highway speeds but not quieter, and I feel it is slightly more peppy like anytime you'd feel after changing an old oil.
The oil is branded as Ford, I think Elf produces it. Has the API CH-4, ACEA E5 and (Ford WSS M2C 921 A) specs. No SF or something. Dipstick says use SF oil only (yes it was back in '84) so I looked at least the SF level until recently. I thought that since the CH-4 is a recent spec and SF is a really older one so it 'might' be allright. But these frightening sounds indicates the opposite.
I gave the oil one week/100km chance. It didn't get either even louder or more silent. The sound is just like a diesel engine's sound so it makes me to wonder if the 'diesel oil' and the 'diesel sound' coincidence has a meaning. Because it is just the sound, no drivability problems at all.
This was my naive report about a diesel-only oil on a GM V6. My question is that despite the sound could this oil do the job, or should I change it ASAP this weekend?
[ April 05, 2003, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: occimacinance ]
i use in my 4.6 vic 5qts. delvac 1 5w40 and 1 qt.15w40 redlines high perfom synthetic diesel oil..i want the moly thats in redline...
I was thinking the same thing. Delvac 1 is reported to be pretty good oil but the moly is missing. Redline is high in moly so a blend of the two might make some pretty good oil.
I'm just curious if we'd be outsmarting ourselves making DIY oil.
If moly is so good, why'd Mobil's chemists "forget" to throw some in the batch of Delvac 1?
I'm just curious if we'd be outsmarting ourselves making DIY oil.
If moly is so good, why'd Mobil's chemists "forget" to throw some in the batch of Delvac 1?
This has been discussed in another recent thread. HD diesel oils typically do not contain friction modifiers such as moly containing compounds. Chevron indicates that this is because the oils are designed for OTR diesel engines with roller cam followers where a certain amount of traction is necessary for proper operation. Cummins has issued a Technical Bulletin warning against the use of moly. They apparently have documented premature cam damage in engines using an older moly additive (MDS). The bulletin is from 1996. Low levels of some newer moly additives, which are less readily oxidized to abrasive end products, are now beginning to appear in some diesel oils.
Since most gas engines have sliding cam followers, it would probably not hurt to add a balanced moly containing additive such as Schaeffer's to D1. I doubt it would make much difference, but it makes more sense than blending oils like so many of you guys like to do.
I have never seen report of a mechanical problem running an all fleet oil in gas engines. But the question that should be addressed is:
Has anyone had a car fail an emissions test using a fleet oil in a gas engine?
Since most gas engines have sliding cam followers, it would probably not hurt to add a balanced moly containing additive such as Schaeffer's to D1. I doubt it would make much difference, but it makes more sense than blending oils like so many of you guys like to do.
I have never seen report of a mechanical problem running an all fleet oil in gas engines. But the question that should be addressed is:
Has anyone had a car fail an emissions test using a fleet oil in a gas engine?
Two observations:
It has been previously opined upon this board that Pennzoil LongLife 15W-40 has a "nice shot of moly"
& there are quite a few who believe that almost all the Fleet-type 15W-40 oils are just fine for use in wet clutch motorcycles. I'm one of them (but I still use Amsoil 10W-40 AMO because it REALLY SHIFTS GREAT!
It has been previously opined upon this board that Pennzoil LongLife 15W-40 has a "nice shot of moly"
& there are quite a few who believe that almost all the Fleet-type 15W-40 oils are just fine for use in wet clutch motorcycles. I'm one of them (but I still use Amsoil 10W-40 AMO because it REALLY SHIFTS GREAT!
On the oil containers lists it for gas and diesel engines. Additive packages same stuff as in s rated oils except more. Cat killers? I never read posts that mention killing cats when Amsoil or Redline or Schaffers oil is mentioned, look at the virgin oil samples. Can the Amsoil or schaffers guys chime in on this ,they know alot on oils.Most G.M.gasoline engines have roller lifter cams.
[ April 05, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]
[ April 05, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]
buster, i change my oils 1500- 2000 miles but this oil last for 10-20000 miles or more...i always changed oil at those intervals all my life so its something i want to do is to keep clean oil in my engines
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