Upgrading 15 year old headlight bulbs

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Honestly, if you want credible advice, save the time and hassle and just go to Candlepower forums automotive subforum and read/ask there.

They can be a bit terse and uptight, but are knowledgeable, and members of the lighting industry with actual expertise and experience that cuts through all the [censored] that floats around the internet. Taking pictures of lights against a wall does not make one a photometrician.

Kinda like how Barry (CapriRacer) functions here.

But that's actually if one wants sound advice, and not just an excuse to "mod" their vehicle with toys.
 
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
Honestly, if you want credible advice, save the time and hassle and just go to Candlepower forums automotive subforum and read/ask there.

They can be a bit terse and uptight, but are knowledgeable, and members of the lighting industry with actual expertise and experience that cuts through all the [censored] that floats around the internet. Taking pictures of lights against a wall does not make one a photometrician.

Kinda like how Barry (CapriRacer) functions here.

But that's actually if one wants sound advice, and not just an excuse to "mod" their vehicle with toys.



"Taking pictures of lights against a wall does not make one a photometrician."

First off, it was against a fence lol. I don't think you need a "photometrician" to tell you which lights appear brighter to you...it doesn't need to be that complicated.. Its very simple, you spend 30$ and try them and if you don't like them, so be it? Just like I have spent 30-50$ on other types of bulbs and was not satisfied.. I just moved on til I found something I liked. No reason to say putting in LEDs are "toys" or is "modding" just because you don't agree.
 
I'd get with this guy. He really helped me upgrade my 2002 4Runner. He's a really smart guy and can advise what will and won't work.

You have to email him and he can be a little slow getting back. I think it took him a week to get back with me and I called him every other day....


Daniel Stern Lighting
 
That's the thing most fail to understand -- it is complicated.

Lighting is not strictly about the amount of light, intensity, color, or objectively measurable characteristics.

That light has to be placed in the proper places, in the right amounts, to result in good vision and seeing.

Human physiology plays the other big part in the result; how our eyeballs perceive the light, and how our brains use that information to create vision. Human eyeballs do not make good photometric instruments, and they also differ from how camera sensors perceive things.

Headlights and signaling bulbs are important safety devices, with specific requirements based on science. Not opinion, or what one "likes." They impact a driver's safe operation of a vehicle, and that impacts others on the road as well.

It's not about what I agree or don't agree with. To the people who have the expertise to design and evaluate automotive lighting, LED retrofits are junk, and not suitable for their intended purpose.
 
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
That's the thing most fail to understand -- it is complicated.

Lighting is not strictly about the amount of light, intensity, color, or objectively measurable characteristics.

That light has to be placed in the proper places, in the right amounts, to result in good vision and seeing.

Human physiology plays the other big part in the result; how our eyeballs perceive the light, and how our brains use that information to create vision. Human eyeballs do not make good photometric instruments, and they also differ from how camera sensors perceive things.

Headlights and signaling bulbs are important safety devices, with specific requirements based on science. Not opinion, or what one "likes." They impact a driver's safe operation of a vehicle, and that impacts others on the road as well.

It's not about what I agree or don't agree with. To the people who have the expertise to design and evaluate automotive lighting, LED retrofits are junk, and not suitable for their intended purpose.


If you look at the comparison of the beam patterns in the 2nd picture of lights against the fence, it should be pretty clear that the light pattern is literally identical. The only difference is, the brighter concentration of light is of a much larger surface area from the LED side. Same pattern but brighter. I don't need to talk to a specialist to see that, its pretty obvious. All that matters to me is that it has improved my ability to see versus any other option. If you want to argue that I am just "perceiving" a difference and that its not there, than sure, we will agree to disagree. But arguing safety, is nonsense.
 
Again, you seem unable to grasp that a picture of a beam against a wall or fence is not a valid test of headlamp performance.

In lieu of any other data you can provide, or proof of your credentials to make such an assertion, it is no more than internet quackery.

My original suggestion was simply to seek the guidance of those with professional expertise, because that's clearly lacking here.

And to believe that unproven modifications to safety systems will not impact their effectiveness is simply foolish.
 
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
Again, you seem unable to grasp that a picture of a beam against a wall or fence is not a valid test of headlamp performance.

In lieu of any other data you can provide, or proof of your credentials to make such an assertion, it is no more than internet quackery.

My original suggestion was simply to seek the guidance of those with professional expertise, because that's clearly lacking here.

And to believe that unproven modifications to safety systems will not impact their effectiveness is simply foolish.


People are not interested in facts and science.
I said the same thing above, but it just gets ignored and people want to look at a picture from a [censored] camera.


If it looks good, it must be good. Right?

Problem is a good option does exist that is not LED or HID.
Getting clear lens housings with some good halogen bulbs (something like the Xtra-Vision or Vision Plus bulbs, or maybe the modified 9012, along with the lights being aimed correctly) would be a good improvement over whatever old bulbs are in the fluted lenses that are probably very hazy.

Speaking of Daniel Stern, I had e-mailed him about a year ago specifically about LED PnP lights, and this is his reply (me in black, his response in blue:

Quote:

Greetings Blu, Thanks for writing.


Mr Stern, I have enjoyed your website and have learned a lot about lighting from it.

Glad to hear it!

I have used your site many times with regards to why not to do a Plug n Play HID "kit" in halogen housings. I have seen many people argue now that the optics and filament issue does not apply to the new PnP LED headlight bulbs.

But it does, for all the same reasons. The "LED bulb conversions" now flooding the market are not a legitimate, safe, effective, or legal product. No matter whose name is on them or what the vendor claims, these are a fraudulent scam. They are not capable of producing even a fraction of the amount of light produced by the filament bulb they supposedly replace, let alone producing it in the right pattern for the lamp's optics to work. Please take a look at this uncommonly rigourous amateur test of this kind of product:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...1-LL-H11-100-H9

Eventually there may be legitimate LED drop-ins for certain halogen headlight bulbs. It's being worked on by Philips, and their first products of this nature have been released in unregulated markets, but it's a great deal harder to achieve than the trinket vendors would have you believe. For now, *don't*.


I know the concept is the same between HID and LED, but many others do not

And most of those have made up their minds and don't wish to be bothered with facts.

Regards,
Daniel Stern



His last sentence really wraps it up.
 
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
Again, you seem unable to grasp that a picture of a beam against a wall or fence is not a valid test of headlamp performance.

In lieu of any other data you can provide, or proof of your credentials to make such an assertion, it is no more than internet quackery.

My original suggestion was simply to seek the guidance of those with professional expertise, because that's clearly lacking here.

And to believe that unproven modifications to safety systems will not impact their effectiveness is simply foolish.


Okay so my eyes are wrong, im just imagining that I see better at night with the LED's compared to 9012 or 9006 bulbs that I previously used. I have no vested interest in LEDs. Simply stating that I prefer them to the others I have tried. If experts or science prove Im wrong, so be it.
 
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
Again, you seem unable to grasp that a picture of a beam against a wall or fence is not a valid test of headlamp performance.

In lieu of any other data you can provide, or proof of your credentials to make such an assertion, it is no more than internet quackery.

My original suggestion was simply to seek the guidance of those with professional expertise, because that's clearly lacking here.

And to believe that unproven modifications to safety systems will not impact their effectiveness is simply foolish.


People are not interested in facts and science.
I said the same thing above, but it just gets ignored and people want to look at a picture from a [censored] camera.


If it looks good, it must be good. Right?

Problem is a good option does exist that is not LED or HID.
Getting clear lens housings with some good halogen bulbs (something like the Xtra-Vision or Vision Plus bulbs, or maybe the modified 9012, along with the lights being aimed correctly) would be a good improvement over whatever old bulbs are in the fluted lenses that are probably very hazy.

Speaking of Daniel Stern, I had e-mailed him about a year ago specifically about LED PnP lights, and this is his reply (me in black, his response in blue:

Quote:

Greetings Blu, Thanks for writing.


Mr Stern, I have enjoyed your website and have learned a lot about lighting from it.

Glad to hear it!

I have used your site many times with regards to why not to do a Plug n Play HID "kit" in halogen housings. I have seen many people argue now that the optics and filament issue does not apply to the new PnP LED headlight bulbs.

But it does, for all the same reasons. The "LED bulb conversions" now flooding the market are not a legitimate, safe, effective, or legal product. No matter whose name is on them or what the vendor claims, these are a fraudulent scam. They are not capable of producing even a fraction of the amount of light produced by the filament bulb they supposedly replace, let alone producing it in the right pattern for the lamp's optics to work. Please take a look at this uncommonly rigourous amateur test of this kind of product:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...1-LL-H11-100-H9

Eventually there may be legitimate LED drop-ins for certain halogen headlight bulbs. It's being worked on by Philips, and their first products of this nature have been released in unregulated markets, but it's a great deal harder to achieve than the trinket vendors would have you believe. For now, *don't*.


I know the concept is the same between HID and LED, but many others do not

And most of those have made up their minds and don't wish to be bothered with facts.

Regards,
Daniel Stern



His last sentence really wraps it up.


Okay, I trust my eyes over facts and scientific proof. Seems like most other people also trust their eyes based on LED light reviews.

"Getting clear lens housings with some good halogen bulbs (something like the Xtra-Vision or Vision Plus bulbs, or maybe the modified 9012, along with the lights being aimed correctly) would be a good improvement over whatever old bulbs are in the fluted lenses that are probably very hazy."

9012's were not as bright and also not legal as you need to break off a tab to make it fit the 9006 housing. Xtra visions burnt out within 8 months..OP was looking for a better option...
 
I agree with contacting Daniel Stern.
I'm pretty sure if you have a Tahoe or Suburban, your lights are wired with relays. If they are not, check out the schematics on Daniel Stern's website and have at it. I wired a few older cars like that and the difference was unbelievable.
Also, do not buy any of the chinese light housings. Years ago, my 1998 Yukon took a hit to the front and I instructed the guy doing the body work to use all factory parts and I would make up any difference insurance did not cover. Needless to say, I got robbed and he used aftermarket junk. I tried a few different housings from the internet before biting the bullet and paying big bucks for new factory housings.
 
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Okay, I trust my eyes over facts and scientific proof.


Your eyes are very easy to fool - as any street magician can demonstrate.


Quote:
Seems like most other people also trust their eyes based on LED light reviews.


You can have total trust in someone even as they are lying to your face - as any con artist can demonstrate.

The manufacturers of these drop-in LED kits understand both of these concepts and use that understanding to take your money.

There is one use for photographs of headlight beam patterns shining on a wall or fence - and that is to see if there is something egregiously wrong with the headlamp. For example, a misaligned bulb in the housing would cause all sorts of odd patterns and streaks to appear.

But photographs of a headlight beam pattern shining on a wall can't tell you how good it is.

Setting aside the issues of blinding other road users and how well you can actually see, there are also legal ramifications to consider, since these drop-in kits all render your headlight illegal, no matter what the seller/manufacturer says. You can very well be in a world of hurt if you hit another vehicle or God forbid a pedestrian at night with illegally modified headlamps.
 
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