United 767-300 Has Fuselage Buckled by Hard Landing at IAH July 29, 2023

john_pifer

john_pifer

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No insider information on this.

But with that wrinkling- it’s going to be an expensive fix at best and likely written off.

This was a trained pilot at the controls.

Can’t help but think about the thread where most folks without training think they can land an airliner. Sure they can…it ain’t that easy…
 
I recall in materials science class, the prof noted that an airliner to scale has a skin thinner than an aluminum beverage can. I do recall one brand of bicycles (Cannondale) which had a fairly radical oversized tubing design. Before them, there were companies making aluminum bike frames in a more traditional 1” width, but Cannondale was maybe 1.5” for the top tube and 2” for the down tube. Their rationale was that they could make it thinner, and that oversizing it made it stiffer, where it actually weighed less than the smaller diameter equivalent.
 
If I were United I would start by draining the tanks, removing the engines, gutting the interior of anything useable, and throwing it on a trailer and hauling down to the local scrapper and take whatever they give me for a slightly bent 32-year-old 767. They had a -300ER flying Newark to Houston? Isnt that a bit overkill? You dont take your Winnebago to go buy a loaf of bread. Replace that route with a 737-10 MAX that will haul about the same number of souls minus a dozen or so, and probably still make more money. Order one now and I'm sure Boeing could have one in your hands in a....couple years or so. There may be other factors to consider, I cant be bothered.

Trust me, I'm a fully licensed, middle-aged and thoroughly burnt out A&P. Follow my homepage for more kneejerk aviation related advice.....

On a more serious note, I too think that poor thing is done flying.

Astro, what happens with the pilot in situations like this? I'd be drinking heavily at this point if I were him, thats what I did when I ran over my chainsaw with the Kubota and I knew I had to eventually tell the wife. I cant imagine whats going through his mind right now.
 
RedSpider said:
If I were United I would start by draining the tanks, removing the engines, gutting the interior of anything useable, and throwing it on a trailer and hauling down to the local scrapper and take whatever they give me for a slightly bent 32-year-old 767. They had a -300ER flying Newark to Houston? Isnt that a bit overkill? You dont take your Winnebago to go buy a loaf of bread. Replace that route with a 737-10 MAX that will haul about the same number of souls minus a dozen or so, and probably still make more money. Order one now and I'm sure Boeing could have one in your hands in a....couple years or so. There may be other factors to consider, I cant be bothered.

Trust me, I'm a fully licensed, middle-aged and thoroughly burnt out A&P. Follow my homepage for more kneejerk aviation related advice.....

On a more serious note, I too think that poor thing is done flying.

Astro, what happens with the pilot in situations like this? I'd be drinking heavily at this point if I were him, thats what I did when I ran over my chainsaw with the Kubota and I knew I had to eventually tell the wife. I cant imagine whats going through his mind right now.
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Likely what happened is too quick of a "derotation" where they drop the nose too fast after touchdown.

One answer to a pilot shortage is to use bigger planes to carry more psgrs for the same two-pilot crew.
 
awguy said:
Likely what happened is too quick of a "derotation" where they drop the nose too fast after touchdown.

One answer to a pilot shortage is to use bigger planes to carry more psgrs for the same two-pilot crew.
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Pilots are trained for the specific type of aircraft they are flying. As for having two pilots on bigger planes I believe that is dictated by the length of the flight.
 
RedSpider said:
If I were United I would start by draining the tanks, removing the engines, gutting the interior of anything useable, and throwing it on a trailer and hauling down to the local scrapper and take whatever they give me for a slightly bent 32-year-old 767. They had a -300ER flying Newark to Houston? Isnt that a bit overkill? You dont take your Winnebago to go buy a loaf of bread. Replace that route with a 737-10 MAX that will haul about the same number of souls minus a dozen or so, and probably still make more money. Order one now and I'm sure Boeing could have one in your hands in a....couple years or so. There may be other factors to consider, I cant be bothered.

Trust me, I'm a fully licensed, middle-aged and thoroughly burnt out A&P. Follow my homepage for more kneejerk aviation related advice.....

On a more serious note, I too think that poor thing is done flying.

Astro, what happens with the pilot in situations like this? I'd be drinking heavily at this point if I were him, thats what I did when I ran over my chainsaw with the Kubota and I knew I had to eventually tell the wife. I cant imagine whats going through his mind right now.
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The route is between to UA hubs. The 767 could also be part of staging for an INTL flight out of Houston. Finally, what is the freight on the route. NYC to Houston might be a lucrative cargo run... lots of reasons to use a widebody....
 
Circled in red is why he landed so hard… he was 22 mins ahead of schedule! 🤣

Scary stuff. I’ve been on some sketchy landings, especially into Sea-Tac when it was a downpour at night and what felt like a pretty good side wind…. Puckered up for sure!!

IMG_1984.jpeg
 
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awguy said:
One answer to a pilot shortage is to use bigger planes to carry more psgrs for the same two-pilot crew.
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Why have ANY pilots onboard at all? Why can't one pilot on the ground be in charge of 5 planes in the air. If autonomous cars are on the road, why not planes in the sky? Huge money saver for the airlines.
 
atikovi said:
Why have ANY pilots onboard at all? Why can't one pilot on the ground be in charge of 5 planes in the air. If autonomous cars are on the road, why not planes in the sky? Huge money saver for the airlines.
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This should get interesting. Waiting for responses.
 
GON said:
The route is between to UA hubs. The 767 could also be part of staging for an INTL flight out of Houston. Finally, what is the freight on the route. NYC to Houston might be a lucrative cargo run... lots of reasons to use a widebody....
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I used to take a 76 on that route that would continue on to Copenhagen
 
atikovi said:
Why have ANY pilots onboard at all? Why can't one pilot on the ground be in charge of 5 planes in the air. If autonomous cars are on the road, why not planes in the sky? Huge money saver for the airlines.
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If anything goes sideways, I'd have to assume that the pilot now needs to be in charge of one plane. The people to their left and right now have to absorb the other planes.

Not sure how good data links are, but they can be interrupted. How good is autopilot for bringing a plane out of the sky? I'm guessing pretty good in good conditions, not so sure about bad weather--let alone when having a mechanical issue. I'm not sure AI is good enough to come up with solutions on the fly (no pun intended), but humans can, but often they have to be at the wheel, and not interrupted by a datalink that might have failed.
 
supton said:
Not sure how good data links are, but they can be interrupted. How good is autopilot for bringing a plane out of the sky? I'm guessing pretty good in good conditions, not so sure about bad weather--let alone when having a mechanical issue. I'm not sure AI is good enough to come up with solutions on the fly (no pun intended), but humans can, but often they have to be at the wheel, and not interrupted by a datalink that might have failed.
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F18s can land themselves on a moving, rolling aircraft carrier, so I’d hope autopilot could pull it off on a stationary target 🤣

/sarcasm
 
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SubieRubyRoo said:
F18s can land themselves on a moving, rolling aircraft carrier, so I’d hope autopilot could pull it off on a stationary target 🤣
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Who programs the autopilot?

Who configures the airplane?

Who selects the runway, flap setting, approach speed, autobrakes?

How does the airplane taxi once landed?

All of those functions are currently done by a trained crew. Autopilots cannot do that. Remote pilots cannot do that.

You need to understand how an airplane actually operates before making suggestions on how they can be flown.
 
Astro14 said:
Who programs the autopilot?

Who configures the airplane?

Who selects the runway, flap setting, approach speed, autobrakes?

How does the airplane taxi once landed?

All of those functions are currently done by a trained crew. Autopilots cannot do that. Remote pilots cannot do that.

You need to understand how an airplane actually operates before making suggestions on how they can be flown.
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Astro, I was completely joking, in jest at the whole AP poke. I’d trust two people at the controls more than the computer… the onboard pilots actually have incentive to execute a successful landing. And yes, even though I’ve got plenty of exposure to watching Navy jets fly and land, I’ve only ever flown a Piper Warrior II myself. Didn’t mean to imply I was ignoring commercial or military pilots’ skill.
 
RedSpider said:
Astro, what happens with the pilot in situations like this? I'd be drinking heavily at this point if I were him, thats what I did when I ran over my chainsaw with the Kubota and I knew I had to eventually tell the wife. I cant imagine whats going through his mind right now.
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Obviously I'm not Astro, but I'm also an A&P, and I've read about aviation culture enough, both here on this board, where we have some very experienced and knowledgeable pilots, to know that unless the PIC and check airman were demonstrably negligent, their jobs won't immediately be on the chopping block.

Of course, there are a LOT of factors that will come into play, which can count both in their favor and possibly against them, in the investigation, including experience, training history, evaluation history, recent schedule, any possible problems with the aircraft, weather at the time, and many other things I'm not thinking of or aware of.

I know that airlines in 2023, especially Western airlines (US, Canada, UK, Western Europe, Australia) have learned that punitive culture is not helpful, and tends to lead to attempts to cover up mistakes.

That being said, they also have to take future liability into account if they've lost confidence in an individual's decision making and/or skill.

I'd be interested to hear @Astro14 and @lurker comment further on this, when they have the time, and certainly correct anything I've said that's off base.

EDITED TO ADD: Drinking won't help anything. If I were that pilot, I'd feel bad, but I'd be doing everything I possibly could to show how sorry I was that it happened, and that I was willing to do anything and everything possible to prevent anything of the sort from ever happening again. I would think the worst thing they could do would be to show any kind of arrogance. I'd want to show a willingness to take every training and sim class they wanted me to take. If you're him, you have to accept that it happened and move on with a resolve never to let it happen again (Indeed, if he was at fault. We don't know any of the details. There could be circumstances we don't know about, of course.)
 
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