Union Auto Workers (UAW). Are they the problem?

[Popinski]

I just got back from an 8 hour road trip and I saw so many offensive UAW stickers such as "Don't put my flag on your foreign car!" and "Each time you buy foreign, a man loses his job".

Now...I've always wondered...are the UAW's a good thing or a bad thing? Pros and Cons? By Pros, I don't mean things like the workers get $75 an hour with full benefits.. I mean, are UAW workers good workers in general?

Look at Hyundai Alabama workers for example...they are non-union workers that are assembling one of the most reliable cars in America and they are making $22 an hour. Majority of their workers are happy and non-threatening to the company. HOWEVER, the Hyundai factory in Korea are Unionized and they constantly have strikes and complaints(like most unions). Because of this, Hyundai lost millions of dollars.

Are the UAWs really the demise of the Big 3? What would happen if the Big 3 got rid of the Unions? Do you think thousands of jobs will come back to America?

I need your opinions, non-political please.

 

[Popinski]

I really want an American car for my next vehicle but I'm very skeptical about the UAW or any company that has unions. I was think the Hyundai Sonata because it is non-union made and Made in America.

 

[Johnny]

Nothing wrong with the quality of work a UAW auto worker puts out and in my opinion nothing really wrong with a union, except the crooks that run the unions.

 

[rjacket]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with unions.

In the case of the UAW, clearly they are very powerful. And that has probably happened as a reaction to the fact that the car companies once made super profits and didn't care about their workers. But when the company they worked for got into trouble, I didn't see many concessions.

Both management and the unions need to take responsibility for the situation they got into. And this for me is why there shouldn't have been a bail out. It wasn't as if it was bad luck. It was poor management and overpaid workers over a long period of time.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I don't mean things like the workers get $75 an hour with full benefits..


There's no UAW member that "gets" $75/hour.


Quote:
and they are making $22 an hour.


...just like that $22/hour isn't what it costs Hyundai for an hours work.

 

[Propflux01]

I think unions were good in thier day, before federal laws that govern workers came to be. Now, I believe they are the downfall of the big three.

 

[bradepb]

I am pretty familiar with the situation being from the Detroit area,I worked for chrysler many years ago,and have current family members employed there and retired from GM.
The starting wage for asssembler is now about $14.50 per hour with a top out at about $20.00 with no defined pension plan for new hires.
Production workers under the old wage structure get about 26-28 dollars an hour and with pension and benefits ,yes, there true wage is much more than 75.00 an hour.
when I worked there in the 70's it was a trip, lazy workers, bar at lunchtime, no qaulity control, the foremen didnt care if the hood latches we made worked or not, just make your production number.
It is a lot different now there is much improved qaulity control and better workers,
The UAW priced them selves out of the market but that has and is changing,
You have to remember one thing, the companys had to agree to everything the unions got and the white collar workers had it pretty darn good too.

 

[bradepb]

Another thought, the small bus company I work for now is union and our drivers wages and benefits are nothing special,less than some of our nonunion competitors,just because you have a union dosn't mean you can get blood from a turnip,it actually works to the company advantage many times because of the contract including work rules ect.

 

[Pablo]

The combination of lousy unions (can you say hookers in trailers?, look it up or paid to sit?, look it up) and lousy management CAN BE a dead cocktail.

 

[bradepb]

"paid to sit" The jobs bank was always something that rubbed people the wrong way , me included, I remember guys at my sportsmans club bragging about being paid full wages to go to the jobs bank and play cards and [censored] all day, some of them for a year or more.
I wonder how many UAW bashers know what the the jobs bank is , that would realy set them off

 

[saberz]

Job Bank

Quote:
According to that document, the basic guarantee from the 1987 agreement is that no eligible employee will be laid off over the term of the agreement, except under the following specific circumstances. 1)Reduced customer demand, a maximum of 42 weeks over the life of the agreement (commonly known as loss of marketshare); 2)Acts of God or other conditions beyond the control of management; 3)Conclusion of an assignment known in advance to be temporary; and 4) Plant rearrangement or model changeover.

Eligible employees can not be laid off because of new technology (robots), sourcing decisions, or company-implimented efficiency actions. There are generally three states of layoff: temporary layoffs where workers know their return date, indefinite layoffs where workers get 48 weeks of unemployment benefits and a supplemental from their employer equal to 100 percent of your salary. After 48 weeks workers are reemployed by the Job Bank, at which time they receive 95 percent of their salary. They don’t get seniority, but they do continue to receive health benefits. While in protected status, employees may be assigned to training programs, certain non-traditional jobs, openings at other UAW locations (they only have to accept them if the job is within 100 miles of their home, otherwise they can stay in job banks), and other assignments “consistent with the intent of the program.”


Must be nice.

 

[GMBoy]

The Job Bank program has been eliminated. Was a bad idea that was concieved way back when the big 3 were not in trouble.

As many of you know I am a GM production manager and deal with the UAW daily. I have a lot to say about this topic both pro and con. I'm gonna leave my response today very short. But I will comment in more detail at a later date after I see all the posts that I am sure are coming.

My short and sweet thoughts: I think the UAW was needed at one time but has somewhat outlived its usefulness and is way too powerful. The actual workers I deal with are VERY quality oriented and perform excellent work for me. They are good people overall and many even have masters degrees. I'd say that a good 90% of my employees are GOOD people, working hard for their pay. People outside the industry can complain all they want about the high wages earned by an assembler but let me tell you those same folks complaining WOULD NOT last 1 week on this type of work. Case in point - we get temp workers now and for every 100 applications more than 1/2 are immediately disqualified for failing the drug test. We end up getting maybe 25 of these and within the first 2 weeks we usually only have about 17-18 left because they quit.

So - the pay is good but deserved. The UAW hurts me the most by not allowing me to place the best employee for the job - it has to go by seniority. I think the whole seniority thing is the worst thing I can say right now about the UAW that negatively impacts me. The last thing is that it is true that in most cases the union is only good for saving the BAD employees since the good ones are not in trouble anyway and don't need representation.

I'll leave those couple points out there for now.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
The combination of lousy unions (can you say hookers in trailers?, look it up or paid to sit?, look it up) and lousy management CAN BE a dead cocktail.



Right. We can easily knock on the UAW and what they've done but ultimatley management agreed to everything. That's what ticks me off the most....trying to do my job with roadblocks that my own upper mgt agreed to. They don't even set foot in the assembly plants to see how screwed up they've made it in ways.

 

[badtlc]

The unions are great for American workers and terrible for American businesses. This wasn't always true, though. Back in the day, unions did a great amount of good an improved the entire industry. Then greed set in and apparently a HS degree is a more valuable asset than 90% of college degrees.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
The Job Bank program has been eliminated. Was a bad idea that was concieved way back when the big 3 were not in trouble.

As many of you know I am a GM production manager and deal with the UAW daily. I have a lot to say about this topic both pro and con. I'm gonna leave my response today very short. But I will comment in more detail at a later date after I see all the posts that I am sure are coming.

My short and sweet thoughts: I think the UAW was needed at one time but has somewhat outlived its usefulness and is way too powerful. The actual workers I deal with are VERY quality oriented and perform excellent work for me. They are good people overall and many even have masters degrees. I'd say that a good 90% of my employees are GOOD people, working hard for their pay. People outside the industry can complain all they want about the high wages earned by an assembler but let me tell you those same folks complaining WOULD NOT last 1 week on this type of work. Case in point - we get temp workers now and for every 100 applications more than 1/2 are immediately disqualified for failing the drug test. We end up getting maybe 25 of these and within the first 2 weeks we usually only have about 17-18 left because they quit.

So - the pay is good but deserved. The UAW hurts me the most by not allowing me to place the best employee for the job - it has to go by seniority. I think the whole seniority thing is the worst thing I can say right now about the UAW that negatively impacts me. The last thing is that it is true that in most cases the union is only good for saving the BAD employees since the good ones are not in trouble anyway and don't need representation.

I'll leave those couple points out there for now.


Well said. If anyone here has any right to make any judgements about the UAW, it is GMBoy.

 

[Spector]

For many years I was anti union feeling that their workers had a tendency to slack off and in my home town they were probably the main reason the whole area is now depressed as the factories moved out.

However, with the most recent depression and the huge loss of benefits by American workers I feel that businesses are in the drivers seat for many years to come and without unions the workers will never ever be able to regain the benefits that were available 2 years ago. Most companies have dropped traditional pension plans, many have reduced or eliminated 401K contributions, more out of pocket medical costs etc. It may be time to reconsider unions. Companies will never increase institute new benefits without persuasion. today,s management and stockholders want more profits every quarter and don't care about long term steady growth.

 

[mechtech2]

It is primarily the pension and health care plans that are unsustainable for the UAW union contracts in this country.
It is overwhelming and impossible.
Other unions have not been around long enough for this to mature and be a real problem.
I was a UAW worker [Electromotive Locomotives].

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
The last thing is that it is true that in most cases the union is only good for saving the BAD employees since the good ones are not in trouble anyway and don't need representation.


No need to get unionized to be like that. As soon as the company is large enough, you will get lazy people in your organization hoping others will be prouder than them of the work they do, and do the job for them.

As you said, good employees have no fear of losing their job as they will find another one easily if they have too, unionized or not.

 

[CivicFan]

I've talked to former managers at the Big Three and their dismissive attitude towards their employees made me think that it's good that there is the UAW to protect their rights. The way they talked was quite disturbing - I certainly wouldn't want to be employed by them. Total disregard for the human being...


Hyundai or the other foreign manufacturers may be treating their employees better so there really is no need for the employees to organize in a union to protect themselves.

 

[opus1]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
The last thing is that it is true that in most cases the union is only good for saving the BAD employees since the good ones are not in trouble anyway and don't need representation.


No need to get unionized to be like that. As soon as the company is large enough, you will get lazy people in your organization hoping others will be prouder than them of the work they do, and do the job for them.

As you said, good employees have no fear of losing their job as they will find another one easily if they have too, unionized or not.
Not always....

A lot of times management will find it easier to dump more work on the good people than to deal with the problem employees, union or not. I'm in that situation myself right now.

And as a "good employee" it wasn't easy to find this job, cluster-@@@@ that it is.