U.S. Considers Curbs on Speculative Trading of Oil

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Wow TornadoRed, you sure are a history buff! You must read volumes of books.

True Human nature has not changed per say. Reading the Bible shows that.

I place the blame on one major thing......GREED.

Greed has driven businesses, Wall Street, Banks etc...to make decisions that has put this country where it is today.

I will say that I believe true supply and demand should rule in this oil issue. Don't use oil as an investment or a dollar alternative.
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
I will say that I believe true supply and demand should rule in this oil issue. Don't use oil as an investment or a dollar alternative.


Unless you manage a sovereign wealth fund, one of the big ones, then you are not in a position to decide whether oil should be used as an investment or a hedge against the dollar. If you are an individual, even a multi-billionaire, then you must deal with the situation as it is, not as you would like it to be..

Remember one thing: markets ALWAYS correct. They always have, they always will, Also, what goes up must come down. The events of last summer and fall in the oil market served as a reminder that "buy and hold" is not necessarily a sure strategy for profit.

Finally, it does not matter terribly much which long speculators are holding contracts or even how large their positions are, because they have to sell eventually and everyone knows this. What is more important is the amount of net buying or selling. If a pension fund holds 10,000 oil contracts, the equivalent of 10 million barrels of crude, and each month it rolls over from the expiring spot month to one or more of the out months -- then there is no net increase, no new buying, and no impact on the overall price level. If a sovereign wealth fund wants to buy enough contracts to push up the price, some oil producer can spot the opportunity to sell at a higher price. Again, if the open interest jumps by 50k contracts, prices are going up up up... until those buyers liquidate their positions, or until producers jump in, in adequate numbers, to balance the increased buying.
 
lobbyists ( corporations ) help assist with interests on WALL STREET . It's all related .
 
Originally Posted By: 1993_VG30E_GXE
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Thanks for the info.

My problem is as you mentioned. Profit. They Buy/Sell to make profit. It is not really based on need, or supply and demand. It is based on a need to make profit and whatever "news" or rumor is heard that causes this frenzy of activity to occur.

**How could the price change much if true producers and users set a "fair" price and stuck with it? It wouldn't matter what the consumption is or the supply is. If you need oil you pay the agreed upon price. This could be done every 6 months or a year. It is the change in prices for any ridiculous reason under the sun that is irritating.

And yes there are speculators and gamblers in the market and that is what makes it run. But you understand the risks in the market and understand that it is gambling. Energy is too important to be toyed or gambled with.


Good discussion here guys, here's my replies. Buying & Selling to make profit is not a problem. This is what every single business on earth does, it's the intention of all business men. For the service the speculator provides, he is compensated.

It is based on supply & demand. Speculators forcast the future price of the commodity and trade according to their bias or beleif at the time. I remember on MAR 27 2007, there was a rumor some US Navy ship was fired upon at night. I was looking at my screens, and oil moved 585 points within a span of 1 minute. This was at the time when the war on terror was at it's height. If there's war threat, traders re-price the commodity for potential supply threats. It was in fact a rumor, then soon after the price corrected and went back to where it was before the rumor.

The change in prices are REAL, it shows how important black gold is to our society. If for any reason there was a supply cutoff, there would be total chaos for a while, until the problem is solved, and prices would soar and gas stations could run out.

Prices for everything can't be 'set' like that. If there was a supply disruption, it would be re-priced accordingly. Oil crashed from those heights as total armeggedon great depression scenario consumed wall street in 2008, and there was fear demand would be crushed - and accordingly it was re-priced to reflect it, so we short it down to 30. Add to the fact of all the leveraging and hedge fund activity in the oil market who were completely long, and all the baby boomers who were making all their gains from the oil market in 2008 and up to 2008, who were completely long, but then lost because they didn't sell at the top (which would be impossible to predict anyways).

Everyone was in on the oil bull, especially middle class americans & 401K's etc..., they just didn't sell. I can assure you leading up to the 2008 crash, no baby boomers were complaining about all the pent up gains in their retirement accounts. When it's to their benefit they don't ask questions and don't want to know about it.

Sure there are gamblers in the futures market, but they don't last and they are eaten alive by the successful speculators. Speculation isn't gambling. As Gambling isn't speculation. Gamblers should have little impact as their losses are transferred swiftly mostly to the Speculator and Arbitrageur as a gain. Hedger tries to hedge.


I applaud you and your replies, speaking for the other side can often times be tough. For myself, I grasp everything you speak of except one thing. This isn't necessarily the fault of speculators but those who allow it.

The stock market itself in some shape or form exists and doesn't exist. Your trading digital/non-existant items(meaning you are not PHYSICALLY) trading the goods, your trading parts of goods/services etc. Speculation is just that, your pricing something based on an item and events that have yet to take place.

Your pre-determining the price of a good at a time and price that has not come into play yet, this type of selling shouldn't be allowed. Honestly, whats stopping them from just saying everything from this point on is going to cause oil to rise? Just some silly questions.

If speculation were uncontrolled you know as well as I do, they would adjust the price to the highest point that consumers would be able and willing to pay.
 
From today's Wall Street Journal:

Don't Shoot the Speculators
They predict prices, not set them.
By L. GORDON CROVITZ

Speculators don't get much respect. Short sellers last year were blamed for their trades warning about the credit crisis, and commodities traders are now accused of causing higher oil prices. Even when traders are later proven right -- maybe especially when they're proven right -- we blame them for delivering the bad news.

Maybe it's human nature to reject Shakespeare's warning and shoot the messenger. The good news is that a recent proposal aimed at one group of speculators could prove that speculators of all kinds deserve our thanks -- or if that's too much to ask, at least to be left alone to bring valuable information to markets.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission is considering requiring more disclosure, intended to ferret out what politicians like to call "excessive speculation." Whatever the intention, enough transparency could instead show that oil speculators are heroes, not villains.

Last week, new CFTC head Gary Gensler said the agency might set new limits on oil speculators now that oil prices have doubled this year from a low of $34 a barrel. This was surprising because just last fall, the agency issued an exhaustive study concluding that speculators were not to blame for the runup in oil prices that reached $145 last summer. It's also telling that no one accused traders of harmful speculation when oil prices tumbled from their earlier highs.

The more interesting part of the CFTC proposal is for new transparency to the positions that different kinds of traders take in futures trading. Under current rules, the CFTC sets limits on trading positions based on Commitment of Traders reports, which date back to the 1920s. These put trading in two key categories, based on the type of user, not the positions they have in various contracts. This anachronism has long led to uncertainty about why prices move, a lack of transparency that also feeds the blaming of speculators.

Business users such as airlines and oil companies are considered in the "commercial" category, with hedge funds and other financial traders in the other, more regulated "noncommercial" category. But many commercial users have active trading desks. Likewise, financial firms need to hedge against movements in commodities such as oil because they have trading contracts that leave them as exposed to price risks as the companies that actually use the physical product.

More-detailed reporting on who has which kinds of positions in oil would make the market more understandable. It would show that so-called financial speculators are trying to predict price movements, but also trying to hedge risk. Likewise, commercial traders that take delivery of oil are hedging risks, while also predicting future prices. As oil expert Daniel Yergin points out, more visibility "will give a better sense of how much is the market responding to supply and demand in physical oil and how much is it responding to the supply and demand of money on the part of investors."

It doesn't make sense to shoot either kind of messenger. Markets are collections of information, translated through trading into prices. These prices, unless there is manipulation, are the best estimate of future supply and demand. Such price discovery should not be controversial, though it too often has been.

"Oil market speculation is back in the news," Bob McTeer, a former Dallas Federal Reserve president, wrote on his blog. "I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute since Milton Friedman convinced me long ago that profitable speculation is stabilizing and destabilizing speculation is unprofitable. Speculation is profitable if the speculator buys lower than he sells; it's unprofitable if he sells lower than he buys. Even if they don't make a profit, they are trying."

Or, as the sign in the 19th century saloon put it, "Don't shoot the piano player; he's doing the best he can." Oil industry experts, whether "speculators" or not, do their best to predict price movements. Some focus on uncertainty about Iran. Others point to demand trends from China and India. There's the inherent volatility in this market due to the OPEC cartel having a firm grip on the supply spigot.

Finally, there's the growing role that commodities are again playing as a hedge against inflation and a weak dollar. Increased trading in commodities is a danger-ahead warning about U.S. fiscal and monetary policies. While Washington might like to stifle these particular messengers for the warning they're sending, the rest of us should welcome information about troubles to come.

Congress has succeeded in rattling regulators at the CFTC into doing something about speculators. They have more regulation in mind, but if the CFTC can bring more transparency to oil trading, the result will be excellent even if unintended: We can focus our attention on the real pressures on oil prices instead of wallowing in searches for scapegoats. Better disclosure can reduce the human tendency to blame traders for rising prices when the responsibility lies elsewhere.
(end of quote)

Supply and demand for money as well as the supply and demand for the physical commodity -- that is a key point and one that any discussion of speculation must include. It would be the same if we were talking about soybeans or pork bellies or frozen concentrated orange juice; the price at any point in time includes not only the fundamentals of the commodity in question but also the fundamentals of the CURRENCY being used to trade that commodity!
 
Same thing we have been saying. Supply and Demand should set the price.

What this says that bothers me is that they try to predict a future price. This causes all the problems. They don't use true real time supply and demand info but use any bit of rumor to try and come up with a price. If major buyers (Countries) and sellers(Countries or Companies) came together and agreed upon a price for long term contracts there would be no predicting of future prices. They would be set.

Make these people put up all the money for it or have to take delivery if they want to play with it.

**This is also an issure many times with the stock market. Many solid companies that are making money had their stocks go no where. But rumors about other companies shot their stock sky high and then they crashed and burned.
 
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Funny how since all this talk about oil prices and speculators has heated up, the oil prices have gone down.......hmmmm
 
WOAH - Hot topic. I go on my fishing and camping trip and get back now and you guys have left me out. I'll give my input tonight, although so elementary compared to you guys.

Tornado Red has basically explained it much better than me. I'm only 30, and have no degrees or diplomas past High School - I dropped out in first yr of business school to go climb mountains in Alaska.

Gary are you the Amsoil owner? Even though you may hate me, although deep down inside you probably love me :), can you give me a deal on Amsoil, if I give you Buy & Sell recommendations?

I'm going to attempt the transmission overhaul on the Maxima but I want to put AMSOIL ATF starting once it's new. I won't be doing this until early winter, but I can pick stuff up on the US side of the border in the fall. Also, the initial fill after I overhaul, should I just put cheap Walmart stuff in if there is a break-in period, then put the AMSOIL, or can I just start with the AMSOIL right away.
 
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Gary are you the Amsoil owner? Even though you may hate me, although deep down inside you probably love me :), can you give me a deal on Amsoil, if I give you Buy & Sell recommendations?


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Oh, I'm easy ..I'm just not cheap. I indeed would be the flea that would convince you that I benefit the dog. Just give me some prime scratch/bite free real estate to defend.
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Sure. All of my BITOG pals get great deals. It shouldn't cost a whole lot more in Canada. Amsoil has distribution there. I'd probably do the run in and then clean the pan out and whatnot and do an exchange.
 
Originally Posted By: smokey1
last I looked oil and gas were on the rise again . Enough said .
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Oil is going up because the dollar is going down, as simple as that. Besides the supply and demand of oil, you must also consider the supply and demand for dollars.
 
And people are using Oil as a hedge against inflation.

That is wrong. Keep it true supply and demand.
 
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Originally Posted By: ZZman
And people are using Oil as a hedge against inflation.

That is wrong. Keep it true supply and demand.


What are you doing to hedge against inflation? Putting all your savings into gold? Isn't that a little risky?
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So? What has Wall St & Co. done for the nation? Has anyone's pension really grown? Haven't Wall St. & Co. profited off a vapor housing market that pushed vapor profits and produced vapor gains? Haven't the financiers and the money changers profited ..while the entire collective pool of resources were dissolved and diluted.

What do they do for me. What do they do for my nation that isn't paid well in excess of what is brought to the table? Just what compels me to "want" Wall St. & Co. to do more of what they've done? ..because it will be worse without them? So I should reward the "reduced depletion" ..while they aren't sharing in my decline? Pay me to stay aloft ..for there's no hope for you. If you leave me unencumbered to enjoy my life, I might make your misery a bit less miserable. Your sinking into quicksand ..a bit slower. Oh, I'll add water, but I'll add less than the other guy. I care.
Gary, I would bet that there are many who made big bucks . The $$$ came from those who gave it to them. Buy low sell high works better than buy when it is high then sell low.
 
Steve ..what are you talking about? If you're talking about the rewards of speculation ..what in the heck does that have to do with the average person losing?

So, you told your son to invest heavily in his 401k ..he did ..just because good old wise dad said too. Heck, he didn't have the stupid defined benefit package that the idiot union workers had ..that the steel mill defaulted on. He was way smarter than those lazy slacker idiots. No way was he going to have that happen to him.

..and, by doing so, brought his future retirement to the market to be harvested. He lost and others gained.

It's simple math, Steve. Very simple math. You have a boom that is sustained by OPM. You figure when to get out before the music stops ..knowing that most of the population is locked in with mutual funds that are cumbersome to react. They lose. You gain.

Essentially a dinner bell for OPM.

See how wise your son was in "investing" early and to the max? He provided as much of his retirement for others to get wealthy on.

Wall St. thanks him for his participation.

Very simple, Steve. VERY simple.
 
Every thing is basically speculating. Not fair ? maybe wrong ? Why was the stock market so overpriced ? speculating paying more than what it was worth because some though it would go up more .I am buying tankers of oil cause it might go up,,, no I am not.
 
Speculating...gambling. Same thing in my mind. Just a play on words. There are winners and losers. Thats how the game is played.

However I don't think energy that is so important to the global economies whould be played with.
 
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red

What are you doing to hedge against inflation? Putting all your savings into gold? Isn't that a little risky?


Nothing. I live paycheck to paycheck and don't have excess to gamble or speculate. However I do put my retirement money in the stockmarket hoping I can do well.
 
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Every thing is basically speculating. Not fair ? maybe wrong ? Why was the stock market so overpriced ? speculating paying more than what it was worth because some though it would go up more .I am buying tankers of oil cause it might go up,,, no I am not.


It's done with OPM. It costs other people.. which are ALWAYS composed of more losers than winners. ALWAYS. Most of the population is impotent to alter the actions of the market. Essentially they fuel the mechanism ..and are, on average, assured to lose. Assured.
 
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