type f fluid in 4l60e

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Nov 12, 2021
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what happens if you put ford type f atf into a 1999 4l60e? e.g. motocraft f, amssoil supershift, mobile f. what happens with redline full synthetic f (10/53 cst)? will there be an real torque capacity increase?
 
Isn't Type F just a hydraulic fluid with no friction modifiers in it? Seems like it would slam the shifts and break things.
 
No it will have a harder grab if anything, putting more stress on the trans.
 
well, speeding up (slamming?) the shifts is actually the idea. i cant get under 0.3 sec with software at full torque. i guess its a balance between burning up and breaking?
 
"Produces faster shifts, quicker lock-up, better converter efficiency at high temps" (redline)
"... automatic transmissions coupled to high-horsepower, high-torque engines and where heavy loads place a high demand ..." (amsoil)

thats what they say. has anybody used it in a 4l60e?
 
what happens if you put ford type f atf into a 1999 4l60e? e.g. motocraft f, amssoil supershift, mobile f. what happens with redline full synthetic f (10/53 cst)? will there be an real torque capacity increase?
No.

The amount of torque that can be handled is entirely dependent on transmission design such as diameter of clutch packs, number of clutches in clutch pack, and shaft and bearing diameters, and actuator pressures.

Assuming the programming is not changed, about the only thing you will get are harsh lockups, because Type F has a different dynamic coefficient of friction, Mu(v).

And yes, we have used Type F in 4L60e (my 1999 S-10) and similar transmissions, but we have the trannies rebuilt with upgraded internals and have them reprogrammed. After the 1/4 mile runs, we do a complete fluid exchange with Dexron VI type fluid and reprogram it.
 
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well, speeding up (slamming?) the shifts is actually the idea. i cant get under 0.3 sec with software at full torque. i guess its a balance between burning up and breaking?

The shift time cannot be accurately calculated without a Input Speed Sensor (ISS) on the Turbine Shaft which 4L60E's didn't receive 'til 2007 in the GMT900 Chassis. Which also why you never see Shift Timing/Long Shift DTC's on 4L60E equipped vehicles.

The 2-3 Shift can only be so fast without causing a Bind-Up where the unit shifts 2nd-4th-3rd, To slow will cause a 2nd-1st-3rd (Felt as a Flare).
A absolutely perfectly clean 2-3 shift is not actually possible, A ever so slight bind (2-4 Band & 3-4 Clutch ever so slightly overlapping) is the best you can hope for.
 
thank you guys. so i have to accept the "no", but please help me understand the "why".

mola, are you saying only the dynamic coef is higher and the static the same, so it will not hold more torque? as mentioned the harsh lock ups is what im looking for, at least its my understanding i should be.

so the shifts are so hard the internals (sun shell, sprag?) cannot handle it and thats why you change the fluid? maybe this could be tuned to some extend with fm/ep additives? what additional detrimental effect are to be expected (seals)?

cline, i have to admitt i dont know much about automatic transmissions, especially not about this one. its stock and is getting about 700 lb-ft. im managing it with efilive and its exactly the 2-3 shift im concerned about (i dont do 1-2 at full throttle, it would fly appart on the first attempt i guess). i look at rpm drop and i cant get it lower than 0.3 sec. with no harshness. i even dont think it has changed much with programming. the 1-2 at part throttle is about 0.1 sec and harsh. are you saying im at the limit of what the trans can do because of internal functioning?

"Use in transmissions that require Allison* C-4 or Ford* Type F fluid" (amsoil super shift): this i find confusing. any contemporary universal atf will include the c-4 spec (as well as tes-295/389). you can use it in "any" trans. logical conclusion: you can use super shift in any trans. what am i missing?
 
"Use in transmissions that require Allison* C-4 or Ford* Type F fluid" (amsoil super shift): this i find confusing. any contemporary universal atf will include the c-4 spec (as well as tes-295/389). you can use it in "any" trans. logical conclusion: you can use super shift in any trans. what am i missing?

Allison C-4 is a very old spec. Shell Rotella 15W40 does or did at one time meet the Allison C-4 specification. Would you use Rotella 15W40 in your 4L60E for that reason???
 
The 2-3 Shift can only be so fast without causing a Bind-Up where the unit shifts 2nd-4th-3rd, To slow will cause a 2nd-1st-3rd (Felt as a Flare).
A absolutely perfectly clean 2-3 shift is not actually possible, A ever so slight bind (2-4 Band & 3-4 Clutch ever so slightly overlapping) is the best you can hope for.
I'm really glad you posted this. I was whining to a transmission guy about the clunky 2-3 shift in a Vette I had about 10 years ago, he said "Well good, you got a good one. When it stops doing that, let me know, it will be time for a rebuild". I was like, what? Fast forward a few years, my friend bought a truck that had a 4L60e in it, we were using it to move furniture and I was paying lots of attention any time we pulled away from a stoplight, and the 2-3 was smooth as silk and I was thinking, that transmission guy was full of it. I met my friend for lunch about a month later and he shows up in a Lincoln something or other, and I asked him where the truck was. He said "Oh, I traded it in. About a week after we used it to move, the transmission went out, cost me $1500" and I thought "well I guess that transmission guy knew what he was talking about".

What was weird is, with mine if you cycled the ignition off, then started back up, the first 2-3 shift was perfect, every subsequent one was ka-klunk. Gave me some serious brain damage about even keeping the car.

Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread....
 
update: a tech a redline said the only issue would be shudder when engaging the clutch. im not concerned about it as i dont lock the converter anyway. othewise he didnt see any issues. it should provide higher line pressure because of the higher viscosity.
 
thank you guys. so i have to accept the "no", but please help me understand the "why".

mola, are you saying only the dynamic coef is higher and the static the same, so it will not hold more torque? as mentioned the harsh lock ups is what im looking for, at least its my understanding i should be.
Yes as explained above: The amount of torque that can be handled is entirely dependent on transmission design such as diameter of clutch packs, number of clutches in clutch pack, and shaft and bearing diameters, and actuator pressures.

The dynamic coefficient of friction is 'dynamic' because it changes with respect to relative rotating speeds, applied pressures, and type and temperature of friction surfaces.

so the shifts are so hard the internals (sun shell, sprag?) cannot handle it and thats why you change the fluid? maybe this could be tuned to some extend with fm/ep additives? what additional detrimental effect are to be expected (seals)?
We change the fluids because we are daily driving it afterwards.

I would not mess with any additives. A cardinal rule in ATF development is: any changes in the chemistry, no matter how small a change, requires new testing to determine the Mu(v)--the dynamic coefficient of friction.
 
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My very limited understanding has type F not being compatible with some clutch adhesives. Apparently you should never use type F in a transfer case that has and auto4WD option as the clutches will delaminate from their backing over time. Not sure if the same adhesive issue will crop up in a transmission not spec'd for type F.
 
I know quite a few people using Type F in 700R4 transmissions which is essentially a non-electronic 4L60E. Firm shifts, no slipping issues, no excessive material or anything in the filters or pan when changed. However, these are built transmissions behind 450-700 hp engines and don't see a lot of miles.

I use Type F in a TH-350 but it's dragstrip only.

I remember some old timers telling me when I was a kid and learning that the firmer shifts actually decrease clutch wear because they don't slip as much when shifting. As with most anything I "learned" from shadetree mechanics growing up, I take it with a grain of salt. I just use the fluid meant for the application. For a 4L60E, use a quality Dex VI and forget about it. I use High Performance Lubricants "Green" ATF in my 2002 Tahoe with the 4L60E.
 
I went from Dex III to Dex VI on my 4L60E (2002, so it came with III) and saw an immediate and permanent change in transmission temperature (downward, so for the better.) It also modified the shifting a bit, but not much. Heat stability is a big deal especially in the summer and under sustained loads (e.g. pulling a trailer or hauling stuff) so I'll take the benefit and the manufacturer approves of this substitution so that's good enough for me (and, thus far, hasn't killed the gearbox.)
 
My very limited understanding has type F not being compatible with some clutch adhesives. Apparently you should never use type F in a transfer case that has and auto4WD option as the clutches will delaminate from their backing over time. Not sure if the same adhesive issue will crop up in a transmission not spec'd for type F.
I have never heard of any so-called delamination of clutches when using Type F in transmissions or Transfer Cases.

Type F is a basic hydraulic fluid of about 7.5 cSt@100C with no friction modifiers to modify the Mu(v)--the dynamic coefficient of friction.

We use Type F in specially modified TH350's and TH400's for racing, but it is a fully synthetic Type F.
 
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