Two 6-cyl engines: Acura vs BMW

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quote:

Originally posted by carock:
Don't put too much faith in magazine reports about handling. Handling is subjective, it really about what YOU want. I currently have a BMW 325I and I HATE it. Don't know why, I just don't trust it in corners. It may oversteer or understeer, I'm not good enough to figure out which it will do in any given corner. I like rear engine cars because I always KNOW they will oversteer. The Acura is front wheel drive so you always KNOW it will understeer.

I agree with not generally trusting magazines about handling - there are some writers who understand it, but a lot more who don't.

Regarding your 325i, if there's not something wrong with the suspension or the tires, it's a very predictable car handling-wise. Soft like most street cars, but quite good at telling the driver what it wants and what it's about to do. Give the car what it wants. Assuming the car's okay mechanically, a few days on track with an instructor at a club event will do wonders, and I'd bet you'll begin to appreciate it.

Front engine cars will not always understeer, and rear engine cars will not always oversteer. (though all street cars are designed to understeer at the limit). For 20 years or so Porsche has been building understeer into the 911, sometimes a lot of it, to try to keep average drivers out of trouble. (the original C4 model will plow like crazy near the limit) The purpose is to reduce the lift-throttle oversteer that sends so many untrained drivers into the weeds, or worse.

Any car - fwd, rwd or awd - can be made to understeer, be neutral, and to oversteer in the same corner. At different points in the same single pass through the corner.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Rickey:
To me a timing belt which is an integral part of the recriprocatong assembly of an engine and wears out thus making it a valvetrain reliability issue.

I disagree. The difference between reliability and maintenance is in the ability to plan when the service needs to be done.

Rickey, I'm sad to say that you steered this thread into the GM vs. import path!
shocked.gif

Can't say I'm blameless though.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Rickey:
Agreed that BMW made the smart move of not using timing belts. Honda/Acura however has been another story hasn't it? Acura is just an overpriced hyped up Honda with its associated transmission and valvetrain integrity issues. BMW, just another point of disposal(maintenance costs) for that six figure income. This somehow buys "snob appeal" and little else. Not a single rattle in my new (6K miles now)Impala. It says 26.7 MPG right now on the average MPG calculator. I have seen 34 MPG or better average on highway trips. I think that its cam in block VVT is a rather elegant and efficent use of technology. Why must some continue to ignore the obvious superiority of GM's designs? Their TurboHydromatic transmissons and small block engines are legendary for bulletproof reliability. Nisan had their flirt with improperly implimented Nicasil technology too I believe. Does BMW still attempt to use this cylinder lining material? I believe that Porsche was the only manufacturer to get this right.

BMW and six figure income? I think that is a little bit of a generalization as not everyone buys a BMW new (me). Let alone they seem to be a dime a dozen out here so they aren't too expensive to come by after a few years of depreciation. Also only in America would BMW be considered a snob appeal, this a worldwide company with vehicles that start as spartan as a econo car in others areas of the world.

I do not doubt your W-body's fuel mileage capability or reliability granted there should be no excuse for those things as they have been using the same stuff for decades! What I do find fault for GM is there continuation of using old designs for saving money. Why support a company that is just trying to short change the buyer? Like I've said before, I believe cars evolve at a certain pace and I respect companies that take pride in making great pieces of machinery at a current point in time. That could range from safety, suspension design, electronics, mechanical features, the overall fluidity in the way the car functions, etc.

I look at BMW and respect their mechanical engineering/suspension design and see a company that is trying to to make an impressive product. I look at Audi and see a company who takes pride in making a great looking and ergonomic interior backed up with sharp exteriors. I also see Lexus who take stride in making a very luxurious automobile that is also reliable.

Obviously a Chevy Impala should have less to go wrong than a new 3-series...there is a ton less gadgets/engineering into the Impala! The Germans love to over engineer everything and usually be the first to do so then have the Japanese copy down the line making a more reliable version of whatever it may be. There is a reason 98% of American cars are laughed off around the world, it's sad but the reality is that these huge corporations are slow to move and like to nickel/dime every little thing. I think they under estimate that a buyer is willing to pay a bit extra for a better product. Also if GM's products were so fantastic they wouldn't be near bankrupt even with those Unions? They have a long road ahead of themselves and they surely need people like you supporting the stuff they put out now because as generation x and y people age they are running out of the older crowd that grew up buying their cars. A good deal of the 30 and younger crowd have grown up with import vehicles and will continue to buy them...this is a big problem for these companies.

I can only hope the people running GM don't think in the manner you do. If they truly feel their product is that great for the reasons you described then our country will be saying goodbye to them in the not too distant future.

Like I already said before the Nikasil was used on the V8 in the 5/7's of the early/mid 90's and this was a US related problem due to our high sulfur content in fuel. BMW took care of the problem by replacing the blocks on those cars.

[ September 02, 2006, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: windnsea00 ]
 
The 170-cid, 198-cid and 225-cid CHRYSLER Slant Six is still the reigning king of straight sixes. It'd be fun to turbocharge/fuel inject one for today in a '69 two door post-top Dart.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/projectbuild/155_0304_1962_plymouth_valiant_slant_six/

No timing chain, a gear driven cam.

I know you guys enjoy the cars you've mentioned above, but I'd sure be irked at a $1,000 dollar service every 60m miles (on something I think shouldn't have to be serviced during the life of the engine).

It's certainly interesting to read these comments, as these are cars I that wouldn't come to mind for me to buy. BITOG has all sorts of drivers, eh?

smile.gif
 
I like my RSX, but sorta wish I got an Accord Coupe', fwiw. Pete, if you are into Acuras, yeah the TL is nice but the TSX is where it's at for me.

On a note from the TB/TC discussion, my old 1987 Audi Coupe is on 230,000 miles w/ orginal timing BELT! (non-interference)
 
Oh and I forgot to admit that I have never test driven a new BMW. I have driven some older versions though. OK I guess but seems high maintenance from what my colleagues say.
 
quote:

Originally posted by cousincletus:
^^^ But it's OK to spend 1G+ on 60K maintenance but if a GM gets a leaky intake manifold gasket it's a pile of junk, never gonna buy another American product, etc. Not to mention the manifold gasket costs half of the import's normal maintenance costs. They NEVER mention the more reliable GM automatic transmissions, CV joints, etc. either. It's only the negatives. Well, we can only hope that if the economy tanks those folks will be in the unemployment line first picking their zits.

If you consider replacing intake manifold gaskets to be a "normal" maintenance item at less than 100k, I don't know where you're coming from.
rolleyes.gif


The need for intake gasket replacements is simply a design flaw by GM...and is NOT normal in most other cars. Other than GM, what cars require a new intake gasket before 100k in the past?
 
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Critic the intake gasket problem is a minomer: most of the RARE cooling system gasket failures on ANY engine are caused by lack of proper cooling system maintenance. IE: The ethylene glycol base fluid turns acidic due to oxidation from improperly maintained coolant levels. This results in gaskets being eaten away. An engine with a timing belt has IMHO a REAL built in design flaw and is expected to fail. The only proper maintenance for an engine with a timing belt is to trade for one without a timing belt as quickly as possible IMHO.

[ September 02, 2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Rickey ]
 
Both GM and Ford have a very large market presence in Europe....

Does the "Buy American" crowd think that Europeans shouldn't buy GM and Ford vehicles sold in that market, since they are technically "imports"???

TS
 
quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Both GM and Ford have a very large market presence in Europe....

Does the "Buy American" crowd think that Europeans shouldn't buy GM and Ford vehicles sold in that market, since they are technically "imports"???

TS


Most of the european models have no tie with the the American versions as they would never be able to sell such...well lets say type of vehicles. Even the US Focus uses an older and cheaper chassis. The standards for an automobile are much higher in Europe not including the very basic/cheap cars.
 
GM's transmissions were not just mentioned with the word reliable were they?! *** i changed the fluid religously on our 98 catera and it lasted a whopping 106k, and had a tough last 15k miles, piece of junk...

Anyway, id go BMW, i love RWD though, so im biased (aernt we all).

But i leave you with one final thought (song actually)


1-800-222-4357 (AAA Emergency road service)

Rickey dont lose that number, you dont want to call nobody else.....
 
quote:

Originally posted by Quattro Pete:
The first engine is the Acura/Honda 3.2 DOHC V6 (not sure of the actual designation), currently used in the TL and probably a few others.

The second engine is the BMW M54 3.0 I6, used on e46, e39, and a few others up until recently.

Does anyone have some experience or knowledge about both to tell me which of the two is a more bullet-proof design? I looked at the UOAs, but there are only a few. The Acura engine appears to have somewhat elevated metal levels, but it may be a normal break-in behavior and not a concern, I'm not sure.

Are they relatively easy on oil (how big are the oil sumps on each?) and capable of going way past 100K miles without major issues? Are there any known inherent design flaws in any of them?

I know you can't judge a car by its engine alone, but it's just one more point of decision-making process for me.

Thanks!


Back to the OP: Have you considered an S60R?

Seriously, I went through the whole TL/BMW/A4 dance a few years ago, and settled on the R. It will eat the TL's lunch all day long (the TL has just brutal torque steer), and with some mild mods will outrun an M3 (for a lot less money). It handles better than the TL, is not quite as communicative than an M, but is MUCH more livable on real roads. The R's 2.5L engine is typically Volvo; you should get 100k with minimal fuss. 2007 is the fourth and final year for it, so it is reasonably debugged.

Give it at least look before you decide. It's a genuine sleeper. Every Tom, **** and Harry drives TLs and BMWs. And the looks they give when they get dusted by a Volvo is priceless.
 
Volvohead, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it, although with a budget of around $25K, I won't be buying new.
 
I never meant to imply that BMWs were bad handling machines. Most people think they are great and have good reasons for thinking so. I meant to illustrate how subjective handling is. I prefer those evil handling Porsche 911's because I find their "evil" handling qualities so easy to predict. In fact, I purposely set them up to get rid of the initial understeer phase so that they always oversteer. To me, cars like BMW's and Miatas are difficult to drive fast because they can understeer or oversteer and I don't have the talent to figure it out on the fly.Particularly if the car gets unweighted in a turn.Every time I drive a Miata on the track, I spin. Never drive my BMW on the track, I should get around to that.
 
Where to start?
First, timing chains do break (ask any number of Mercedes owners), although there is usally some aural warning. The real issue is interference vs non-interference designs. Replacing the T-belt once in the life of the car is not a big deal.
Second, it is all a matter of what you seek. I have owned four Benzes, six Hondas, one BMW, as well as all sorts of other US and imported stuff. The Hondas have always been very long lived and trouble free. On the other hand, the German cars are great fun to own and drive, and tend to be easily repairable, something you cannot say for all Hondas.
WRT American iron, we have a '97 Aerostar. Brand new, it was a screaming deal at less than 15K. In the 115K we have used it, I have replaced a set of tires, the brakes, and the battery. Obviously a poorly designed and contructed American product. Mobil 1 0W-30 first 90K or so, Rotella 5W-40 since, a little over 21 MPG lifetime, nil oil consumption.
 
What would be so wrong about Honda following suit with Nissan and converting their excellent engines over to timing chains? That's the only 'achilles heel' related to their great powerplants....the looming $1000 bill coming at 100K, or the looming set of destroyed valves if you choose to press your luck.

After the huge pain in the a** involved with the belt on my Eclipse, I vowed to never touch another belt-driven car again..and despite whatever else may go wrong with my 2006 Nissan, I know I won't be facing a timing belt (or bent valves) down the road. Yes, chains do break on occasion...but not often enough to consider it when searching for ultimate reliablity.

After witnessing my neighbor's 2000 TL with 120K on it, I'm completely convinced Honda makes a world class engine. With hood open, that engine idled silently, with not even a shake or rattle. If you didn't see the accessory belt whirling around, you'd never know it was running. To me, that's a testament to quality and good engineering. Why hobble such a great engine with a timing belt? This is where Honda's logic escapes me.

Nissan's VQ 3.5 has been an award winning engine for over a decade. No belt in sight. What's Honda's holdup? BMW and Nissan are obviously onto something.
 
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