Two 6-cyl engines: Acura vs BMW

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I've been drivng Audis for the past twenty years and the TL is the most German feeling of the FWD Japanese cars out there. Having said that, I still like the engine/transmission combo in the BMW and the (chain driven) BMW engine is easier to service. I'd get the large five series and not the little 330i or 325i, unless you have really small friends.

The electrical system of the TL will be better, but the inside looks like every other Honda on the road.

TS
 
Intresting bias you guys have going on here. I see what is parked beside the roadways on my way to work. BMW and the import brands seem to generate their fair share of tow truck business. It seems fashionable to attack GM these days around here. Or is it just an overall anti-American bias? Oh but just let one small critique of some sacred cow slip out and long knives appear.
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Flame on guys, maybe someday you will catch on.
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IMO, driving a boring car that never breaks is worse than driving a fun car that occasionally breaks. But besides, I find it hard to believe that an Impala is an epitome of reliability. I can't remember seeing it at the top of any reliability statistics.

But anyway, when you say the Impala handles better, what other cars have you driven which are the basis for this comparison? Also, when referring to handling, we are talking about a spirited drive through the twisties, not a straight line acceleration. Just so that we're on the same page.
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BTW, thanks for the comments everyone.
 
^^^ But it's OK to spend 1G+ on 60K maintenance but if a GM gets a leaky intake manifold gasket it's a pile of junk, never gonna buy another American product, etc. Not to mention the manifold gasket costs half of the import's normal maintenance costs. They NEVER mention the more reliable GM automatic transmissions, CV joints, etc. either. It's only the negatives. Well, we can only hope that if the economy tanks those folks will be in the unemployment line first picking their zits.
 
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I think all brands generate tow truck business and require repair. The differences really are minutiae. It comes down to personal preference on what people like. No brand is leaps and bounds better than another. It comes to specific model/make. And in the end reliability is not the end all just another factor in the vehicle purchase.

I agree there is an anti american sentiment on this board. I don't like domestics as a whole but don't think they are worse than my personal choice Subaru which interestingly is American built (50% US parts content). I also dislike Honda/Toyota as they are boring.

That all being said I wrote this before. I forsee a minivan in my future. Domestic used is the way to go no matter who reliable or unreliable they are. They are pretty worthless used which trumps supposed repair costs and higher frequency.
 
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Originally posted by cousincletus:
^^^ But it's OK to spend 1G+ on 60K maintenance but if a GM gets a leaky intake manifold gasket it's a pile of junk, never gonna buy another American product, etc.

Once again, overall maintenance/reliability has little to do with my purchase decision, inherent engine design flaws aside. I don't buy GM because they don't offer a product I want. Find me a good-looking fun-to-drive sporty upscale GM sedan with a tasteful interior, and I'll consider it.
 
Go check out some of the Cadillac offerings. And IMHO the Camry and Accord I tested couldn't hold a candle for the Impala that I bought; when driven on a curvy road or otherwise. Did BMW ever straighten out their cylinder etching problems related to "high sulphur" fuels? Whats up with this timing BELT thing? You would think that a modern manufacturer would have given that technology the toss years ago. And please notice that there are no required service intervals for timing belts or much of any thing else except fluids and filters on a GM product either. Mine says coolant, serp belt and plugs at 100K miles and thats it. My coolant will be changed more often however. I would do no less for any other brand as well. Pete what I am trying to say here when asked about engine choice I would choose neither for reliability reasons. If you are chosing on style alone: as they say: "Beauty is in the eye..." Good luck sir.
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Rickey.
 
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Originally posted by Rickey:
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Critic the intake gasket problem is a minomer: most of the RARE cooling system gasket failures on ANY engine are caused by lack of proper cooling system maintenance. IE: The ethylene glycol base fluid turns acidic due to oxidation from improperly maintained coolant levels. This results in gaskets being eaten away. An engine with a timing belt has IMHO a REAL built in design flaw and is expected to fail. The only proper maintenance for an engine with a timing belt is to trade for one without a timing belt as quickly as possible IMHO.


Not sure what's your point here...GM's intake manifold gasket issue was unrelated to coolant maintenance. The gasket design itself was a flaw and was bound to fail at some point. The updated gasket with the revised torquing sequence solved the problem completely, but still, having intake manifold gasket problems before 100k was unacceptable.

Yes, I agree that many cooling system problems are caused by poor system maintenance practices. But these problems are slowly going away with the advancement of coolants with the ability to provide near lifetime protection against corrosion, etc due to the lack of sacrificial components such as silicates and phosphates...but yes, checking the level is important and is often done by service centers, hopefully.

What's your bias against timing belts? Belts and Chains both have their pros and cons. Chains could easily cause equal damage if it were to fail, and are MUCH more expensive to replace.

Belts rarely have failures if they're replaced at the recommended intervals. There's a generous margin of error built into the recommend replacement intervals for timing belts...for one, there was a member on our Acura forum who went 200k on his original timing belt, not smart, but upon inspection, it was fine.

And last time I checked, few engines with chains can be replaced for less than $1000, and the more frequent "replacement interval" required for belts reduces the likelihood of failures.
 
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Originally posted by The Critic:

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Originally posted by cousincletus:
^^^ But it's OK to spend 1G+ on 60K maintenance but if a GM gets a leaky intake manifold gasket it's a pile of junk, never gonna buy another American product, etc. Not to mention the manifold gasket costs half of the import's normal maintenance costs. They NEVER mention the more reliable GM automatic transmissions, CV joints, etc. either. It's only the negatives. Well, we can only hope that if the economy tanks those folks will be in the unemployment line first picking their zits.

If you consider replacing intake manifold gaskets to be a "normal" maintenance item at less than 100k, I don't know where you're coming from.
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The need for intake gasket replacements is simply a design flaw by GM...and is NOT normal in most other cars. Other than GM, what cars require a new intake gasket before 100k in the past?


I never said or implied the manifold problem was normal maintenance. I was making the point that IF you had a problem it costs half the cost of the Acura's normal maintenance, plus it's an easier job for a DIYer.
 
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Originally posted by Rickey:
Go check out some of the Cadillac offerings. And IMHO the Camry and Accord I tested couldn't hold a candle for the Impala that I bought; when driven on a curvy road or otherwise. Did BMW ever straighten out their cylinder etching problems related to "high sulphur" fuels? Whats up with this timing BELT thing? You would think that a modern manufacturer would have given that technology the toss years ago. And please notice that there are no required service intervals for timing belts or much of any thing else except fluids and filters on a GM product either. Mine says coolant, serp belt and plugs at 100K miles and thats it. My coolant will be changed more often however. I would do no less for any other brand as well. Pete what I am trying to say here when asked about engine choice I would choose neither for reliability reasons. If you are chosing on style alone: as they say: "Beauty is in the eye..." Good luck sir.
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Rickey.


I've driven the Cadillac products back to back with BMW and while they have jumped up quite a bit from the horrible driving level in the 90's (mostly the CTS) they still don't offer the balance and overall finesse of a BMW. The only engine that had Nikasil problems was M60 V8's in the 5/7's of the early to mid 90's that BMW replaced under warranty.

BMW doesn't use timing belts either...I believe the Japanese do for better fuel economy for the most part. The idea that someone can compare a Impala with a 20 year old chassis design, an engine design not much newer along with transmission, poor interior materials, etc. to a late model premium brand car (Acura, BMW, etc.) is insane!

I recently drove the Grand Prix as it was one of our rentals and I can honestly list it as my top 10 worst cars I've driven. The spring/shocks were SO soft it felt like I was bottoming out over any dips, not to mention the huge front end wallowing around. No standard ABS was nuts for a family car, the 4-spd auto made me believe I was in the 80's still matched with the interior quality from that era. GM can make a good truck but even they know their cars are extremely lacking in comparison to the japanese/europeans.

There's a reason why those cars dominate the rental car parking lots. I bet even GM would laugh at a comparison of the Impala and entry level premium market cars as they know where their product sits and where it doesn't.
 
Critic wrote:"Not sure what's your point here...GM's intake manifold gasket issue was unrelated to coolant maintenance. The gasket design itself was a flaw and was bound to fail at some point. The updated gasket with the revised torquing sequence solved the problem completely, but still, having intake manifold gasket problems before 100k was unacceptable." "Unrelated to coolat maintenance" ???? Not sure what your logic is here sir. Anyhow the general consensis is that since GM advertised long coolant replacement intervals some folks took that as liscense to ignore coolant levels for the extent of the reccomended refresh intereval. This with the attendant bad results. Would you attempt a 15K mile OCI without checking/topping off? The improved sealing offered by the improved gaskets just makes a very good design more bullet proof (abuse tolerant). Critic also wrote:" What's your bias against timing belts? Belts and Chains both have their pros and cons. Chains could easily cause equal damage if it were to fail, and are MUCH more expensive to replace." Answer: Timing chains are generally not a wqear out item, belts are. Here again what logic was used for the basis of your comment/question?
 
windnsea00 Wrote "BMW doesn't use timing belts either...I believe the Japanese do for better fuel economy for the most part. The idea that someone can compare a Impala with a 20 year old chassis design, an engine design not much newer along with transmission, poor interior materials, etc. to a late model premium brand car (Acura, BMW, etc.) is insane!" Agreed that BMW made the smart move of not using timing belts. Honda/Acura however has been another story hasn't it? Acura is just an overpriced hyped up Honda with its associated transmission and valvetrain integrity issues. BMW, just another point of disposal(maintenance costs) for that six figure income. This somehow buys "snob appeal" and little else. Not a single rattle in my new (6K miles now)Impala. It says 26.7 MPG right now on the average MPG calculator. I have seen 34 MPG or better average on highway trips. I think that its cam in block VVT is a rather elegant and efficent use of technology. Why must some continue to ignore the obvious superiority of GM's designs? Their TurboHydromatic transmissons and small block engines are legendary for bulletproof reliability. Nisan had their flirt with improperly implimented Nicasil technology too I believe. Does BMW still attempt to use this cylinder lining material? I believe that Porsche was the only manufacturer to get this right.
 
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Originally posted by Rickey: "Unrelated to coolant maintenance" ???? Not sure what your logic is here sir. Anyhow the general consensus is that since GM advertised long coolant replacement intervals some folks took that as license to ignore coolant levels for the extent of the recommended refresh interval. This with the attendant bad results. Would you attempt a 15K mile OCI without checking/topping off? The improved sealing offered by the improved gaskets just makes a very good design more bullet proof (abuse tolerant).

Yes, GM had some issues with negligent owner’s ignoring the importance of maintaining coolant levels, hence causing them “mud” problems when coolant levels were low in the 4.3L engines.

But the intake manifold gasket problems were unrelated to the type of coolant used, and were not related to coolant levels either. They were caused by a poorly designed intake manifold gasket, which was later corrected by the “improved” gaskets and an updated installation procedure.

You’re confusing two separate, different problems GM had.

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Originally posted by Rickey:Answer: Timing chains are generally not a wear out item, belts are. Here again what logic was used for the basis of your comment/question?

But can we agree that timing chains aren’t bulletproof either? There have been plenty of timing chain problems, mainly with tensioners, in some engines such as the Saturn S-Series.

At least with timing belts, the tensioner and other items can be inspected on a more frequent basis to catch problems early on before they fail completely, and are often much less expensive to replace.

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Originally posted by Rickey: Agreed that BMW made the smart move of not using timing belts. Honda/Acura however has been another story hasn't it? Acura is just an overpriced hyped up Honda with its associated transmission and valvetrain integrity issues. BMW, just another point of disposal (maintenance costs) for that six figure income. This somehow buys "snob appeal" and little else.

There have never been any valvetrain issues with Honda/Acura engines in the recent years. As for transmissions, the problems have been corrected for nearly three years now.

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Originally posted by Rickey: Not a single rattle in my new (6K miles now)Impala. It says 26.7 MPG right now on the average MPG calculator. I have seen 34 MPG or better average on highway trips. I think that its cam in block VVT is a rather elegant and efficient use of technology. Why must some continue to ignore the obvious superiority of GM's designs?

Gee whiz, if pushrod was really that great, then why is everyone moving to OHC?
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But really, many of us are willing to sacrifice some maintenance costs and worse fuel economy for a more engaging, fun to drive car. Not all of us are after a police cruiser.
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Originally posted by Rickey: Their Turbo Hydromatic transmissions and small block engines are legendary for bulletproof reliability. Nissan had their flirt with improperly implemented Nicasil technology too I believe. Does BMW still attempt to use this cylinder lining material? I believe that Porsche was the only manufacturer to get this right.

Sure GM’s 4T65E transmission is really that great? As far as I know, they’ve had plenty of solenoid and valve body calibration issues that were present up until a few years ago. And I’ve never heard of any BMW cylinder lining material problems in the recent years either.
 
Almost forgot: doesn't the Honda/Acura engine still use solid tappets? These will require periodic testing/adjustment of lash in order to be reliable on the long haul. Hydraulic tappets are self adjusting. I believe that most modern engine manufacturers abandoned this outdated solid tappet style valvetrain in the 60's.
 
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Originally posted by Rickey:
Almost forgot: doesn't the Honda/Acura engine still use solid tappets? These will require periodic testing/adjustment of lash in order to be reliable on the long haul. Hydraulic tappets are self adjusting. I believe that most modern engine manufacturers abandoned this outdated solid tappet style valvetrain in the 60's.

Yes, Honda/Acura V6 engines require a valve lash adjustment, when cold, every 100k. Labor is 2.7 hours, so with a set of two gaskets, it's about $350.

Rickey, I really have nothing against domestics. I'm looking at picking up an off-fleet, Malibu V6 myself next summer when the 07 models equipped with the 3.5L VVT become available for sale. But the OP clearly indicated that maintenance didn't bother him, and he doesn't mind spending more $$$ to have a more engaging, fun to drive car. And money really isn't everything...some of us don't mind spending a few more bucks to have something we truly enjoy.

The Impala is a solid car, but it's a bit silly to compare it to the TL/330i. The latter are near-luxury, sport sedans, while the Impala is really a full-sized family cruiser.

Two different cars, for two somewhat different purposes.
 
To me a timing belt which is an integral part of the recriprocatong assembly of an engine and wears out thus making it a valvetrain reliability issue. Timing chains usually last for the lifetime of an engine, import or otherwise. I have actually seen them reused on rebuilds
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. And dont try to say that GM's engines are short lived either. My "old school" pushrod 2.2 '93 Cavalier has over 250k miles and still counting. Never opened. Style I won't argue as that is a perceptive issue, each to his own.
 
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integral part of the recriprocatong assembly of an engine

Where's my Tylenol?
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The discussion of timing belt versus timing chain isn't really to the point. The question is whether one would choose an interference engine over a non-interference engine, and whether one were to prefer an interference engine with a timing chain over an interference engine with a timing belt.
 
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Originally posted by Audity:
Quattro Pete -

I was interrupted while reading this thread, and when I went back to the beginning I was surprised to be reminded that your question is about the relative merits of the two engines.

I have lots of (mostly track) experience with the various BMW 4's, 6's 8's and 12's, none with the Acuras, except for the NSX (not that I wouldn't like to).

I believe strongly that for every-day driving, thinking about elevated metals levels and sump capacities, while maybe entertaining, is a total waste of neurons.

With proper care, either the Acura or BMW street engine will go a couple of hundred thousand miles or more without having to be opened up. One may require more of certain regular types of maintenance than the other (I don't really know) but the cost of that service relative to owning and driving a car is a pretty small percentage.

My advice, fwiw, is to drive the cars you're interested in, choose the one you enjoy most, and don't give wear metals another thought.

Do the necessary services, use quality fluids and change them often enough. If you feel compelled to worry, worry about something more important than engines. And, definitely, enjoy your car.


 
I'm late to this topic, but this quote really says it all for me regarding The Critic's Impala statement:

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Originally posted by XS650:
My local Acura dealer uses the Enterprise Rental next door to supply loaner cars. When I objected to the Impala loaner I was offered, the Enterprise clerk told me the Acura dealer had instructed Enterprise to put Acura customers in like size American cars whenever possible.


That is too funny! The dealer is saying "hey, we'll make you drive the American stuff and that will be enough for you to be a return customer forever!"
 
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