Tunnels in the tire tread

[OVERKILL]

You’re being hyperbolic but I would not be surprised if the sides of tread blocks in these applications have scallops out of them if you look hard enough.

He has a point, these tires had the best hydroplaning resistance and wet performance I've ever experienced, zero siping:

Also, from Michelin:

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

He has a point, these tires had the best hydroplaning resistance and wet performance I've ever experienced, zero siping:
View attachment 195213

Also, from Michelin:
View attachment 195214

I don’t know what you’re arguing here.

 

[OVERKILL]

3D siping is for hydroplane resistance and in some cases improved snow performance.

I don’t know what you’re arguing here.

Based on what Michelin has said about 3D siping (which, IIRC, they invented), it's about improving handling on winter roads by enabling the tread blocks to remain rigid and not flex, improving contact and subsequently performance. This is in-line with what @Rand was saying.

They make no mention about hydroplane resistance.

Hydroplaning resistance appears to be more a function of the lateral grooves/channels, which is why dedicated summer tires like the PSS, with no siping at all, can be top-shelf performers in this respect, despite having a tread design that doesn't look like it would, or should.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Based on what Michelin has said about 3D siping (which, IIRC, they invented), it's about improving handling on winter roads by enabling the tread blocks to remain rigid and not flex, improving contact and subsequently performance.

They make no mention about hydroplane resistance.

Hydroplaning resistance appears to be more a function of the lateral grooves, which is why dedicated summer tires like the PSS, with no siping at all, can be top-shelf performers in this respect, despite having a tread design that doesn't look like it would, or should.

I’m not getting into a semantic debate on the definition of 3d siping; read my previous posts. It’s a very poorly defined marketing term which can mean anything from traditional siping to scalloped tread block sides to interlocking tread blocks.

The OP’s tire has a large 3D sipe/tunnel/void, whatever you want to call it, which allows for water evacuation between tread voids.

Similar technology is used in Michelin’s Pilot Road 4 motorcycle tires. IIRC Michelin did call it it siping in this application, but these are older tires and I’d have to dedicate more time to a semantic argument to find it.

https://www.michelinman.com/motorcycle/tires/michelin-pilot-road-4

Here’s Cooper on the topic:


This doesn’t mean all tires have to use 3d siping to have good performance. It doesn’t mean there aren’t wildly different applications for 3d geometry in different tires. It just means that tire manufacturers are using some clever 3d geometries in tire design recently to improve several different characteristics depending on the tire application.

 

[sloinker]

Michelin has always made a quality product that typically cost more than their peers. I imagine that weird design must have some benefits. Wait until TireRack or someone else does some testing to denounce them. I am not going to pre-judge without any objective data.

 

[02SE]

Michelin has been making tires for awhile now. My own experience with owning them has generally been very positive. I have no doubt these new tires have been tested extensively, before coming to market.

If I had a truck that took one of the 5 sizes these are available in, and I needed tires, I'd give them a try.

 

[OVERKILL]

I’m not getting into a semantic debate on the definition of 3d siping; read my previous posts.

By engaging in this discussion in the manner you have, you absolutely are

It’s a very poorly defined marketing term which can mean anything from traditional siping to scalloped tread block sides to interlocking tread blocks.

I'm going by what Michelin says, since this is their tire:

Michelin 3D Sipes on Behance

The OP’s tire has a large 3D sipe/tunnel/void, whatever you want to call it, which allows for water evacuation between tread voids.

The OP tire is a Michelin, so I would assume we defer to Michelin's definition of what 3D Siping is here in context, and in that context, the large voids are not sipes, 3D or otherwise.

Similar technology is used in Michelin’s Pilot Road 4 motorcycle tires. IIRC Michelin did call it it siping in this application, but these are older tires and I’d have to dedicate more time to a semantic argument to find it.

https://www.michelinman.com/motorcycle/tires/michelin-pilot-road-4

Well, considering you are the one arguing that it's for hydroplaning resistance and that the large voids are sipes, which is counter to what Michelin claims, you might want to consider digging that up.

Here’s Cooper on the topic:

Yeah, Cooper is claiming the same thing as Michelin basically, that they are added structure to the traditional sipes (slits), to improve rigidity, long term performance and durability.

This doesn’t mean all tires have to use 3d siping to have good performance. It doesn’t mean there aren’t wildly different applications for 3d geometry in different tires. It just means that tire manufacturers are using some clever 3d geometries in tire design recently to improve several different characteristics depending on the tire application.

Sure, 3D geometry in other aspects of tire design is logical, but that doesn't mean that the large voids in the Michelin tires shown in the OP are sipes, 3D or otherwise.

Here's the description:

And I've done up this handy diagram to go with it:

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

By engaging in this discussion in the manner you have, you absolutely are

I'm going by what Michelin says, since this is their tire:
View attachment 195219
View attachment 195220
View attachment 195222
Michelin 3D Sipes on Behance
View attachment 195224
View attachment 195227
View attachment 195225
View attachment 195226
View attachment 195228

The OP tire is a Michelin, so I would assume we defer to Michelin's definition of what 3D Siping is here in context, and in that context, the large voids are not sipes, 3D or otherwise.

Well, considering you are the one arguing that it's for hydroplaning resistance and that the large voids are sipes, which is counter to what Michelin claims, you might want to consider digging that up.

Yeah, Cooper is claiming the same thing as Michelin basically, that they are added structure to the traditional sipes (slits), to improve rigidity, long term performance and durability.

Sure, 3D geometry in other aspects of tire design is logical, but that doesn't mean that the large voids in the Michelin tires shown in the OP are sipes, 3D or otherwise.

Here's the description:
View attachment 195234
And I've done up this handy diagram to go with it:
View attachment 195235

lol. I never called your “grooves” “3D sipes.” I called them voids. I referred to the “tunnel” between grooves/voids as a “3d sipe” and clarified that by saying the term is being applied here to essentially mean a 3d feature. It’s not a perfect term to describe the “tunnel” and I’d love another word for it. These features are for evacuating water from places it shouldn’t be. Hydroplaning resistance is one reason, another is snow performance - but in both cases the purpose is the same: water evacuation from the contact surfaces. Ice crystals melt when pressure is applied, remember.

The 3D element means the siping uses technology to mitigate downsides of traditional siping, such as instability, wearing out, etc., through clever applications of geometry.

All you’re pointing out is that “3D sipe” is a poorly defined term that Michelin’s car tire division defines differently than Michelin’s motorcycle tire division, Cooper, and others.

I agree. Cheers.

Here is Michelin talking about siping and hydroplaning.

 

[OVERKILL]

lol. I never called your “grooves” “3D sipes.” I called them voids. I referred to the “tunnel” between grooves/voids as a “3d sipe”

OK, but going by Michelin's definition, and the generally understood definition of a sipe, those aren't, 3D or otherwise. I would refer to the angled grooves simply as grooves.

and clarified that by saying the term is being applied here to essentially mean a 3d feature. It’s not a perfect term to describe the “tunnel” and I’d love another word for it.

It's a groove. Yes, it appears to have some 3D sculpting along the edges, but it's just a groove.

All you’re pointing out is that “3D sipe” is a poorly defined term that Michelin’s car tire division defines differently than Michelin’s motorcycle tire division, Cooper, and others.

That's not my takeaway Cooper seems to definite it very similarly to Michelin and the definition seems reasonably clear. In the video you shared, they referred to the sipes, as sipes. 3D is not mentioned:

And note that they improve wet weather braking. They do not mention these improving hydroplaning performance.

I appreciate your commitment to your argument, but it's in dire need of some viagra at this juncture.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

OK, but going by Michelin's definition, and the generally understood definition of a sipe, those aren't, 3D or otherwise. I would refer to the angled grooves simply as grooves.

It's a groove. Yes, it appears to have some 3D sculpting along the edges, but it's just a groove.

That's not my takeaway Cooper seems to definite it very similarly to Michelin and the definition seems reasonably clear. In the video you shared, they referred to the sipes, as sipes. 3D is not mentioned:
View attachment 195249
And note that they improve wet weather braking. They do not mention these improving hydroplaning performance.

I appreciate your commitment to your argument, but it's in dire need of some viagra at this juncture.

Siping is for water evacuation and, to an extent, storage. Refer to the Cooper video. Nothing I’m saying is controversial in the slightest. Water evacuation is also the reason traditional siping improves snow performance.

Ya don’t get to change Michelin’s word definitions only when it’s convenient. Michelin calls them sipes in the video.

Michelin’s X-sipe technology is a 3D sipe. They are designed such that they widen as the tire wears. There are also often sipes on the interior sides of the tread voids. 3D sipe just means a channels or scallops cut in various different orientations other than perfectly orthogonal to the tire surface - again, to mitigate the traditional downsides of standard siping.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

This is the feature. I call it a 3d sipe (it widens towards the base), and op calls it a tunnel. It is for water evacuation and associated hydroplaning resistance by allowing water to flow between grooves instead of become trapped between the contact surfaces and the road.

 

[OVERKILL]

Siping is for water evacuation and, to an extent, storage. Refer to the Cooper video. Nothing I’m saying is controversial in the slightest. Water evacuation is also the reason traditional siping improves snow performance.

Siping can help with water evacuation (and storage). I don't disagree. But neither Michelin or Cooper specifically state that it helps with hydroplaning resistance. They both note it improves wet surface traction, snow traction and ice traction by virtue of keeping the tread blocks more uniform; from deforming, while allowing water to displace into the voids (sipes). This is not the same thing as hydroplaning resistance. This is why performance summer tires, with no siping whatsoever, can have absolutely incredible wet weather performance and hydroplaning resistance. The circumferential grooves allow for water evacuation, while the soft compound doesn't require siping to achieve optimal contact.

Large voids and channels in the tread, as well as grooves, are for water evacuation and hydroplaning resistance, which is why these are common features across all types of tires, with and without sipes.

Michelin’s X-sipe technology is a 3D sipe. They are designed such that they widen as the tire wears. There are also often sipes on the interior sides of the tread voids.

I don't see a reference to it being called a 3D sipe, but it very well could be. And yes, its structure is such that by opening up as the tire wears, it maintains the same void to contact ratio, keeping performance consistent.

I recall something similar back when Michelin first started revising their siping technology. They implemented "Y" shaped sipes on tires like the LTX so that once the tire had worn down, decreasing the sipe void area, that this was offset by doubling the number of sipes, keeping performance consistent.

So, back to the main claims here:
- The angled grooves on the Platinum are grooves, not sipes (they are too large to be sipes)
- Hydroplane resistance is not an advertised feature of siping

Anecdote:
The Goodyear Eagle Sport Touring tires that came on my wife's 1500 had lots of siping and lots of grooves, including large circumferential ones:

They were absolute crap in wet weather, because even with the siping, the compound itself was just hot garbage. They were never prone to hydroplaning, having lots of void area, but they were downright dangerous on even slightly wet surfaces, because you simply had no traction; the compound had no bite, regardless of the siping. It was like gold plating a turd, because even though the tread blocks were able to make better contact, the compound couldn't provide traction.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Siping can help with water evacuation (and storage). I don't disagree. But neither Michelin or Cooper specifically state that it helps with hydroplaning resistance. They both note it improves wet surface traction, snow traction and ice traction by virtue of keeping the tread blocks more uniform; from deforming, while allowing water to displace into the voids (sipes). This is not the same thing as hydroplaning resistance. This is why performance summer tires, with no siping whatsoever, can have absolutely incredible wet weather performance and hydroplaning resistance. The circumferential grooves allow for water evacuation, while the soft compound doesn't require siping to achieve optimal contact.

Large voids and channels in the tread, as well as grooves, are for water evacuation and hydroplaning resistance, which is why these are common features across all types of tires, with and without sipes.

I don't see a reference to it being called a 3D sipe, but it very well could be. And yes, its structure is such that by opening up as the tire wears, it maintains the same void to contact ratio, keeping performance consistent.
View attachment 195263

I recall something similar back when Michelin first started revising their siping technology. They implemented "Y" shaped sipes on tires like the LTX so that once the tire had worn down, decreasing the sipe void area, that this was offset by doubling the number of sipes, keeping performance consistent.

So, back to the main claims here:
- The angled grooves on the Platinum are grooves, not sipes (they are too large to be sipes)
- Hydroplane resistance is not an advertised feature of siping

Anecdote:
The Goodyear Eagle Sport Touring tires that came on my wife's 1500 had lots of siping and lots of grooves, including large circumferential ones:
View attachment 195266
They were absolute crap in wet weather, because even with the siping, the compound itself was just hot garbage. They were never prone to hydroplaning, having lots of void area, but they were downright dangerous on even slightly wet surfaces, because you simply had no traction; the compound had no bite, regardless of the siping. It was like gold plating a turd, because even though the tread blocks were able to make better contact, the compound couldn't provide traction.

The specific feature in the photo above, the sipe which connects grooves, will actually mitigate hydroplaning because it allows transfer between grooves in the direction of tire rotation.

Hydroplaning is just a layer of water between the tire and the substrate. Any loss of traction on a wet surface is essentially hydroplaning.

 

[OVERKILL]

This is the feature. I call it a 3d sipe (it widens towards the base), and op calls it a tunnel.

That's not large:

The OP’s tire has a large 3D sipe/tunnel/void, whatever you want to call it, which allows for water evacuation between tread voids.

If that's what you were referring to then I apologize, as I thought you were referring to the angled grooves (which I made reference to several times) leading away from the circumferential grooves with the 3D sculpting on the edges, because you said they were large.

It is for water evacuation and associated hydroplaning resistance by allowing water to flow between grooves instead of become trapped between the contact surfaces and the road.

Yes, it's like the traditional circumferential grooves we see on more traditional designs. They've blocked over it I assume to give it more wear surface, and it will progressively open up into a standard channel/groove as the tire wears.

I agree that it looks like a sipe when the tire is new, so I can understand the confusion now as to what to properly call it. I wouldn't call it a 3D sipe however, based on Michelin's material on what they define a 3D sipe as.

 

[OVERKILL]

The specific feature in the photo above, the sipe which connects grooves, will actually mitigate hydroplaning because it allows transfer between grooves in the direction of tire rotation.

Yes, now that i know what feature you are talking about, I agree that when the tire is new, it does in fact have the appearance of a sipe.

Hydroplaning is just a layer of water between the tire and the substrate. Any loss of traction on a wet surface is essentially hydroplaning.

I consider hydroplaning a loss of traction while in motion, accompanied by a potential loss of control. Poor traction (but not non-existent traction) on wet surfaces is just poor traction and appears to be primarily driven by compound selection not inadequate water evacuation.

 

[dumkid]

Id call it a covered groove

 

[OVERKILL]

Id call it a covered groove

Yep, that's a reasonable description.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

If you go back to OP’s post and watch the video starting at 2:20. It appears it may be a more complicated geometry than a groove, perhaps even a T-shape.

 

[OVERKILL]

If you go back to OP’s post and watch the video starting at 2:20. It appears it may be a more complicated geometry than a groove, perhaps even a T-shape.

Let me check my dealer to see if they have any, if so, I'll see if I can get a better look, and perhaps a picture, of what it looks like.