tStimulus Bill

[Tempest]

It's pure pork to payback political supporters and to expand the government as much as possible as quickly as possible under the guise of a crisis. This is how freedom is always lost.

We have to get this passed NOW...NOW...NOW! or the US economy may NEVER recover.

And it was SO important to pass that it could sit on a desk for 3 days...

Even the CBO says that the economy will be worse in the long term with this package. The motivations for this bill are not economic stimulus.

This bill lays down the frame work for nationalized health care, rolls back welfare reform to pre-96 in which states are rewarded for greater numbers enrolled and plenty of other things we'll find later.

And of course we know that every member of Congress is a super fast reader and can fully understand and contemplate 1107 pages of a bill IN ONE DAY in order to make a fully informed and educated decision that is best for the country.

 

[jldcol]

Lead ballons work, ala mythbusters, though some work. Try osmium.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Under "stimulus," Medicaid is now on offer not to just poor Americans, but Americans who have lost their jobs. And not just Americans who have lost their jobs, but their spouses and their children. And not Americans who recently lost their jobs, but those who lost jobs, say, early last year. And not just Americans who already lost their jobs, but those who will lose their jobs up to 2011. The federal government is graciously footing the whole bill. The legislation also forbids states to apply income tests in most cases.

In this new health-care nirvana, even the rich are welcome. CBO estimates? An additional 1.2 million on the federal Medicaid dime in 2009.

The "stimulus" also hijacks Cobra, a program that lets the unemployed retain access to their former company health benefits -- usually for about 18 months. The new stimulus permits any former employee over the age of 55 to keep using Cobra right up until they qualify for Medicare at age 65. And here's the kicker: Whereas employees were previously responsible for paying their health premiums while on Cobra, now the feds will pay 65%. CBO estimates? Seven million Americans will have the feds mostly pay their insurance bills in 2009.

The bill even takes a whack at the private market. Under the guise of money for "health technology," the legislation makes the government the national coordinator for electronic health records, able to certify what platforms are acceptable. This is an attempt to squelch a growing private market that is competing to improve transparency and let consumers compare providers and costs.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123327719403931465.html

In the name of stimulus? I think not.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The bill even takes a whack at the private market. Under the guise of money for "health technology," the legislation makes the government the national coordinator for electronic health records, able to certify what platforms are acceptable. This is an attempt to squelch a growing private market that is competing to improve transparency and let consumers compare providers and costs.


You mean the privately administered social program for the enhancements of medical providers and their support networks? Fine by me. They haven't been doing us any favors in controlling themselves. Their more thieving fine linen thugs than anyone.

"We do it because we care"

 

[1sttruck]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119822/quotes

As Good as It Gets

Carol: bleep H.M.O. bleep pieces of bleep!
Beverly: Carol!
Carol: Sorry.
Dr. Martin Bettes: It's okay. Actually, I think that's their technical name

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:
One thing about the $790 billion stimulus package is certain: It will jack up the federal debt.

Whether or not it succeeds in producing jobs and taming the recession, tomorrow's taxpayers will end up footing the bill.

Forecasters expect the 2009 deficit _ for the budget year that began last Oct 1 _ to hit $1.6 trillion including new stimulus and bank-bailout spending. That's about three times last year's shortfall.

The torrents of red ink are being fed by rising federal spending and falling tax revenues from hard-hit businesses and individuals.

The national debt _ the sum of all annual budget deficits _ stands at $10.7 trillion. Or about $36,000 for every man, woman and child in the U.S. (Note in 2009 dollars)

Interest payments alone on the national debt will near $500 billion this year. It's already the fourth-largest federal expenditure, after Medicare-Medicaid, Social Security and defense.

This will affect us all directly for years, as well as our children and possibly grandchildren, in higher taxes and probably reduced government services. It will also force continued government borrowing, increasingly from China, Japan, Britain, Saudi Arabia and other foreign creditors.


Good times...

So in 2009 dollars a family of 4 is in debt $144,000 for the government. And we have just started.

Sad.

 

[Shannow]

The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

 

[Gary Allan]

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

Based on the current logic, that was just early stimulus. After, spending is what is needed. What's the problem?

 

[eljefino]

Fear of losing health insurance keeps many in jobs they aren't the most qualified for or efficient in. Any bridge to help one remain insured while they, say, start their own business that runs better... without fear of catastrophic bankruptcy from a modest hospitilization... is okay by me!

 

[Tempest]

So you are advocating nationalized health care??

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

Based on the current logic, that was just early stimulus. After, spending is what is needed. What's the problem?


You didn't seem to give a rat's behind when 10.7T was being whizzed up the wall...now screaming blue murder at 12-13% of it...

some people would call that hypocritical.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

Based on the current logic, that was just early stimulus. After, spending is what is needed. What's the problem?


You didn't seem to give a rat's behind when 10.7T was being whizzed up the wall...now screaming blue murder at 12-13% of it...

some people would call that hypocritical.


Actually, any number of us did complain. We were ignored then too.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

Based on the current logic, that was just early stimulus. After, spending is what is needed. What's the problem?


You didn't seem to give a rat's behind when 10.7T was being whizzed up the wall...now screaming blue murder at 12-13% of it...

some people would call that hypocritical.


Actually, any number of us did complain. We were ignored then too.

+1 I have never supported deficit spending.

And that original 10.7 Trillion was accrued over 30 years, much of it during a cold or hot war.
The current 2 trillion deficit will accrued in ONE YEAR with warnings by officials that we should get used to it.

 

[Shannow]

First 5.7T was accrued during the period of which you speek (up to 2000), next 5T in the 8 years from 2000-2008...i.e. almost as much as the entire US history of deficits in 8 years.

Yep, and 2T in one year is equally ridiculous

 

[Tempest]

Just so there is some reference to all of this:

Quote:
• Marshall Plan: Cost: $12.7 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $115.3 billion
• Louisiana Purchase: Cost: $15 million, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $217 billion
• Race to the Moon: Cost: $36.4 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $237 billion
• S&L Crisis: Cost: $153 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $256 billion
• Korean War: Cost: $54 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $454 billion
• The New Deal: Cost: $32 billion (Est), Inflation Adjusted Cost: $500 billion (Est)
• Invasion of Iraq: Cost: $551b, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $597 billion
• Vietnam War: Cost: $111 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $698 billion
• NASA: Cost: $416.7 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $851.2 billion

TOTAL: $3.92 trillion

That is $686 billion less than the cost of the credit crisis thus far.

The only single American event in history that even comes close to matching the cost of the credit crisis is World War II: Original Cost: $288 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $3.6 trillion

The $4.6165 trillion dollars committed so far is about a trillion dollars ($979 billion dollars) greater than the entire cost of World War II borne by the United States: $3.6 trillion, adjusted for inflation (original cost was $288 billion).

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/big-bailouts-bigger-bucks/

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

Based on the current logic, that was just early stimulus. After, spending is what is needed. What's the problem?


You didn't seem to give a rat's behind when 10.7T was being whizzed up the wall...now screaming blue murder at 12-13% of it...

some people would call that hypocritical.


Actually, I've cared ever since I've started paying taxes. It doesn't seem to matter. Folks typically think the government owes them something (for nothing) and have no problem with the government spending OPM or money they don't even have.

I recall back in 2004 all the folks wanting the government to provide this or that when I watched voters interviewed during the campaigns.

Not one said they wanted less government. Every one interviewed wanted their pet program funded. Healthcare, education, etc. They all said it was the job of government to provide the goodies in one way or another.

I've been pretty consistent that most of the goodies provided are outside the constitutional mandate of the federal government. But my view is not popular, so more is spent, more that we don't have.

Heaven help us.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The first $10.7T were certainly worth it.

Based on the current logic, that was just early stimulus. After, spending is what is needed. What's the problem?


You didn't seem to give a rat's behind when 10.7T was being whizzed up the wall...now screaming blue murder at 12-13% of it...

some people would call that hypocritical.


Actually, any number of us did complain. We were ignored then too.


AMEN!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Just so there is some reference to all of this:


So inflation makes it all the more responsible ?

$2T is going to be peanuts when it's time to pay it back.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
So inflation makes it all the more responsible ?

Nope. Just putting a measuring stick out there.