TSMC needs to hire 4,500 Americans but it's "brutal" corporate culture is getting in the way

[JeffKeryk]

And

All I can say is, W-T-heck? I don't know foundry stuff, but I can't imagine it being any more OTJ training than any other job. You get good at it by doing it--start in the field young, the equivalent of being the guy walking mail around and work up. Head into IC design, that I do know a bit more about, and it's kinda foolish to spend a year plus training anyone, not when typical retention is around 5 years these days. Bad ROI. Maybe in Taiwan they can count on retention, but in Silicon Valley? err, that's nearby, but you get the idea. Unless if they are holding a carrot out in front of people fresh out of college, I can't see anyone in their 30's (or more), with a family, house, usual trappings, wanting to spend a year (a year!) overseas for training.

We do have a few foundries in the US:

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TSMC understands the American workforce; they would not go into this venture with unrealistic expectations. Of course any company wants the best qualified "best of the best" but companies have to deal with reality.
The CA University system generates more engineers than anywhere in the world. Sure, they fuel Silicon Valley, along with many more candidates from around the world. We are the most diverse place on earth.

My guess is, a lot of qualified people around here will jump for that cheaper housing market, especially newer graduates. I think you know, the machines that operate the fabs are designed here; my career was at Novellus, now Lam Research. R&D and Pilot lines are still built here, but the production semiconductor equipment is moving to lower cost locations.

 

[nthach]

In Asia, more so Japan, being subservient to your company and dedicating your waking hours for them is a seen as a sign of honor - the sari-man is a common thing from what I’ve read. Don’t know much about Chinese work culture but they expect you to hustle. Fuyao would be a good example - Chinese company, Rust Belt labor force at a shuttered GM plant retooled to make glass. Foxconn wanted to manufacture here in the US but that was a boondoggle - a majority of their assembly in the Americas in in Mexico. TSMC picked Arizona for good reason - Microchip, Intel and NXP are there and so is the University of Arizona/Arizona State and they got tax breaks to do so. I could see TSMC doing well in Oregon in the Portland area(more so Beaverton/Hillsboro/Wilsonville) for the same reasons - Intel is in Hillsboro, lots of talent in the Silicon Forest between Corvallis(as well as University of Oregon in Eugene) and Portland/Vancouver, WA and cheap energy.

Toyota uses the move Gung Ho as a lesson in how not to manage American workers. Honda and Nissan hire temps from Kelly.

 

[SHOZ]

Technology in the US has greatly increased productivity over the years. The dollar per worker number is not too reliable a metric IMHO.

 

[Pew]

I've always been told by people on their death beds to enjoy life and stop working so much. There's lots of jobs out there that have more than 40 hour work weeks, lots of them with monetary compensation to makeup for the long hours. UPS is the first to come to mind where 60+ hour work weeks are the norm but they get very well compensated.

So it's not "brutal" corporate culture, it's their want to treat workers like slaves. We see extremely high suicide rates and dissatisfaction in life in first world, technically and culturally advanced countries while other first world countries with shortened or 10h/4day work weeks have a much higher satisfaction with life.

 

[SHOZ]

I've always been told by people on their death beds to enjoy life and stop working so much. There's lots of jobs out there that have more than 40 hour work weeks, lots of them with monetary compensation to makeup for the long hours. UPS is the first to come to mind where 60+ hour work weeks are the norm but they get very well compensated.

So it's not "brutal" corporate culture, it's their want to treat workers like slaves. We see extremely high suicide rates and dissatisfaction in life in first world, technically and culturally advanced countries while other first world countries with shortened or 10h/4day work weeks have a much higher satisfaction with life.

Where I use to work the OT was asked based on hours already asked/worked and not compulsory. At holiday time where you got double time plus holiday pay it was always a juggle amongst a few to get that holiday OT. I didn't but did work 12hrs 4 days then an 8 usually during the need for money years.

We went to a 24/7 day operation. 4 days one week, 3 days the next with fixed days 12 hr shifts. It was the best setup I ever worked. I was on the 2nd shift and worked Thurs-Sunday/Fri-Sunday.

Some workers would work 12-16 hrs every day and took home more than the Plant Manager.

 

[KrisZ]

If TSMC wants to do business here, they need to adjust their culture to here as well. What they do in China and how they treat their people over there is irrelevant.

I agree that we have some very highly entitled youth these days, but it’s not like the corporations didn’t become entitled as well. How many still offer pension? Nowadays if you have a 401k matching it’s a big deal. The health insurance coverage is getting worse and worse too.

And Chinese are starting to wake up and realize that the rat race is not all that great. They have some sort of movement called “laying flat” or something to that effect. Basically doing the bare minimum.

Any guesses in which age bracket it is getting popular?

 

[y_p_w]

If TSMC wants to do business here, they need to adjust their culture to here as well. What they do in China and how they treat their people over there is irrelevant.

I agree that we have some very highly entitled youth these days, but it’s not like the corporations didn’t become entitled as well. How many still offer pension? Nowadays if you have a 401k matching it’s a big deal. The health insurance coverage is getting worse and worse too.

And Chinese are starting to wake up and realize that the rat race is not all that great. They have some sort of movement called “laying flat” or something to that effect. Basically doing the bare minimum.

Any guesses in which age bracket it is getting popular?

TSMC has a small footprint in mainland China. They’re also opening a fab in Japan.

Besides that, TSMC has a large number of expats working at their fabs in Taiwan. So dealing with workers who might not understand Chinese work culture isn’t new to them.

There will be a lot of issues with working in Arizona, but the biggest is going to be water. Semi fabs needs lots of water and Arizona might not have enough. TSMC’s biggest footprint is in Hsinchu. And to address their water needs, they have desalination available in times of drought.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If TSMC wants to do business here, they need to adjust their culture to here as well. What they do in China and how they treat their people over there is irrelevant.

I agree that we have some very highly entitled youth these days, but it’s not like the corporations didn’t become entitled as well. How many still offer pension? Nowadays if you have a 401k matching it’s a big deal. The health insurance coverage is getting worse and worse too.

And Chinese are starting to wake up and realize that the rat race is not all that great. They have some sort of movement called “laying flat” or something to that effect. Basically doing the bare minimum.

Any guesses in which age bracket it is getting popular?

TSMC is based in Taiwan, not China. They know America very well as we make their production machines and buy their fabbed chips.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company.

 

[tcp71]

Working for a Chinese company for 3 years showed me that white collar Chinese workers spend a great deal of TIME at work, but use that time for general living and not dedicated to getting work done. Can't speak to industrial workers, but there was a lot of time spent looking at baidu, alibaba and doing things north americans do at home.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Working for a Chinese company for 3 years showed me that white collar Chinese workers spend a great deal of TIME at work, but use that time for general living and not dedicated to getting work done. Can't speak to industrial workers, but there was a lot of time spent looking at baidu, alibaba and doing things north americans do at home.

TSMC is not a Chinese company. Taiwan.

 

[userfriendly]

This post is about needing 4500 qualified workers. We have to make them. Education is key. A 2 year tech degree at a Community College would fill many of those positions. And others would continue on to advanced degrees.

Semiconductors are the future. Do you want America to have it or do you wanna cede it to our enemies?

Sounds like women's work.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Sounds like women's work.

There are a lot of really smart women! My old boss was a drop dead gorgeous gal, 10 years younger than me and a serious business woman. I bet she's worth at least $50M, probably much more.

 

[KrisZ]

TSMC is based in Taiwan, not China. They know America very well as we make their production machines and buy their fabbed chips.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company.

Oops, my bad, didn't realize they're based in Taiwan. Having said that, I'm sure their work culture is not that much different from that of the Chinese people.

 

[PandaBear]

What we considered "brutal" is the norm in many Asian countries' high paying field. TSMC is famous as a sweat shop in Taiwan, however they do pay the best (some said annual bonus could be 14 months of salary for average workers), so the fortune is there for the brave. Heck, even in Amazon you can be working 60-80 hours a week in the US to get those 240-300k salary.

Don't compare Intel to TSMC though, Intel today is just a sad place for those who no longer can find a better job, and a place for politics.

 

[dishdude]

What we considered "brutal" is the norm in many Asian countries' high paying field. TSMC is famous as a sweat shop in Taiwan, however they do pay the best (some said annual bonus could be 14 months of salary for average workers), so the fortune is there for the brave. Heck, even in Amazon you can be working 60-80 hours a week in the US to get those 240-300k salary.

Don't compare Intel to TSMC though, Intel today is just a sad place for those who no longer can find a better job, and a place for politics.

You laughed at my post in this thread. What did you find about it that was so funny?

 

[PandaBear]

Interesting you say that. One of my economics professors, Dr. Chen, was from China. She said the same thing. She literally said Americans work too much. Or was she a spy trying to make us lazy? j/k

So which is it?

You don't use GDP or productivity as a way to measure hard working. This is like calling someone in NYC asking for changes with a paper cup hard working if they make $300 a day while someone in China working a factory job making $150 a day doing 12 hours of factory work lazy.

In expensive locations nobody can afford to build low margin cheap stuff with cheap labor, they can only afford to build high margin products due to high labor cost, thus, winning the productivity measurement with a lot of automation. Is the security guard in a NYC hospital harder working or more productive than a nurse in China if they make the same income per hour? or if the security guard in NYC more productive if he makes a little more?

 

[PandaBear]

You laughed at my post in this thread. What did you find about it that was so funny?

I just replied. The recap is these measurements are useless as they use dollar per person to measure "how hard worker", this only works if they are making the same dollar per hour doing the same job, which as we all know isn't.

 

[PandaBear]

There's a Chinese-owned automobile glass company nearby that has many Chinese workers that they bring here for 1-2 years. They routinely work 12-16 hours a day, 7 days a week. The climate between many of them and the American workers is okay and the Chinese even joke that "Americans are lazy" when they clock out after 8-10 hours and tell the Chinese worker "No, I have a life" and they get a nod or thumbs up. The Chinese workers almost can't work less or go home 'early'.

The pay there is good but they say you earn it. Some of the pay scale comes from it being a former GM auto plant and they actually hired many of those workers that lost jobs. They're also trying to keep the union out so they pay good while the benefits are actually excellent.

I heard from someone who works in the Chinese factory (in China) of the same company, that they cannot replicate the same productivity in US due to union, surprisingly the pay isn't the biggest problem for them. They want to hire people willing to work 12-16 hours and they can't, even if they are willing to pay for it.

 

[PandaBear]

If TSMC wants to do business here, they need to adjust their culture to here as well. What they do in China and how they treat their people over there is irrelevant.

I agree that we have some very highly entitled youth these days, but it’s not like the corporations didn’t become entitled as well. How many still offer pension? Nowadays if you have a 401k matching it’s a big deal. The health insurance coverage is getting worse and worse too.

And Chinese are starting to wake up and realize that the rat race is not all that great. They have some sort of movement called “laying flat” or something to that effect. Basically doing the bare minimum.

Any guesses in which age bracket it is getting popular?

In a way yes, but remember, people in Silicon Valley's startup works this hard as well. People in Amazon and Facebook supposedly also work this hard to justify the 200-400k annual income.

You cannot have a company paying you a lot and demand just average productivity, you either have to be the best with skills they can't find elsewhere (not in TSMC's case in Arizona), or you have to work really hard to get there. There is a reason Intel fell so hard since 2000, they low balled their employees and only the slackers or politicians remain there now. Today even Amazon and Facebook have better silicon engineers than Intel.

 

[Dave Hess]

In a way yes, but remember, people in Silicon Valley's startup works this hard as well. People in Amazon and Facebook supposedly also work this hard to justify the 200-400k annual income.

You cannot have a company paying you a lot and demand just average productivity, you either have to be the best with skills they can't find elsewhere (not in TSMC's case in Arizona), or you have to work really hard to get there. There is a reason Intel fell so hard since 2000, they low balled their employees and only the slackers or politicians remain there now. Today even Amazon and Facebook have better silicon engineers than Intel.

Yep. Big $$$ will attract the best.