Trying to decide between Michelin Defender 2 or Yokohama Avid Ascend GT

[oil pan 4]

Ah, finances before safety. It is important to have priorities set.

Be my guest put safety above all else. It's a free country, somewhat.
So when you get a new or new to you vehicle do you immediately always S can the tires on there and install a set the highest rated $800+ set michelins and replace them at 5/32?
Tell us more about all that you're willing to give up in the name of safety.

 

[oil pan 4]

I'm sorry, but you've got this almost entirely wrong.

4) I am not aware of any government minimums for traction ANYWHERE on the globe.

3) I agree that OEM's don't care much about tire wear, but they do try. I've heard that 30,000 miles is kind of considered a minimum (with a few exceptions) and, Yes!! they don't always succeed.

2) Yes, smooth and quiet are important for OEM's - but be aware that that adds cost.

1) Cheap means poor quality. The carcass of OE tires are made from the same stuff the rest of the tires are. Complexity adds cost, and every effort is made to make ALL tires inexpensive. What's different about OE tires is the tread. The rubber is designed to give better fuel economy, and they do that by sacrificing wear and/or traction, especially wet traction. In other words, the design goals are different for OE tires.

And, yes!! the OEM's don't pay as much as you or I do, but they buy hundreds of thousands of the same thing, delivered in a steady stream to the same place on a very regular basis. It's easy to set up assembly lines and supply chains when things don't change for years!

I go into more detail here: Barry's Tire Tech: OE Tires

You don't have to apologize to me. If I say something dumb call me out on it.
What do you mean entirely wrong? Sounds like you agree with me on most of them.
A quiet smooth OEM tire that lasts around 30,000 miles is exactly what I'm talking about. They'll last long enough to get the car sold even if it's a dealer demo car with a few thousand miles on it.
The OEMs could put quiet smooth riding tires on the car that last 50,000 miles but that will add hundreds of dollars to the sticker price. A few hundred dollars can make the difference between a car selling and not selling to a customer.

 

[oil pan 4]

I have been quite disappointed in the Defender 2. Put them on my Dodge Nitro a year ago. Too easy to get wheel spin and have ABS engaging on hard braking. I thought I was getting a quality tire.

The $900+ (with sales tax) tire sets do make a few unsatisfied customers. One would think you get what you paid for but not always. It sucks finding out that way that the more expensive tires don't do anything better than the cheaper set.

 

[edyvw]

Be my guest put safety above all else. It's a free country, somewhat.
So when you get a new or new to you vehicle do you immediately always S can the tires on there and install a set the highest rated $800+ set michelins and replace them at 5/32?
Tell us more about all that you're willing to give up in the name of safety.

Depends what is OE tire (OE is term. OEM is term for aftermarket products made by companies that make OE products). Not all OE tires are bad. That strictly depends on car manufacturer what kind of tire they will put.
But, if tire is bad, yes, I will take it off and put Michelin, Bridgestone, Continental or Pirelli. I like my kids more than my wallet.

 

[edyvw]

The $900+ (with sales tax) tire sets do make a few unsatisfied customers. One would think you get what you paid for but not always. It sucks finding out that way that the more expensive tires don't do anything better than the cheaper set.

Really? Tell us what cheaper tires do same as expensive tires?

 

[TOLSON]

If you want a tire that has an 80,000 mile warrantee, know that some things will be sacrificed with that hard rubber compound. I tend not to pay to much attention to Tire Rack track evaluations, and scrutinize customer ratings. The number of reviews on a specific tire and the number of people who would buy again. Defender2 has the lions share of outstanding ratings. However pay attention to comments, lots of people review their tires when they are pretty new. Some people don't mind noise from their tires, some prefer a better ride quality. There are so many variables and those variables are expressed by customers with a lot of subjectivity. I would bet the Avis line of Yokohamas would give a better ride than Defenders. Who cares if they ware a bit faster. I love the Yokohamas on my Mazda CX-5.

 

[edyvw]

@CapriRacer

I think this might be it. But, I don't have access:
https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-performance-when-tires-are-worn-a8910439854/

 

[oil pan 4]

Really? Tell us what cheaper tires do same as expensive tires?

Make the car go......

 

[oil pan 4]

If you want a tire that has an 80,000 mile warrantee, know that some things will be sacrificed with that hard rubber compound. I tend not to pay to much attention to Tire Rack track evaluations, and scrutinize customer ratings. The number of reviews on a specific tire and the number of people who would buy again. Defender2 has the lions share of outstanding ratings. However pay attention to comments, lots of people review their tires when they are pretty new. Some people don't mind noise from their tires, some prefer a better ride quality. There are so many variables and those variables are expressed by customers with a lot of subjectivity. I would bet the Avis line of Yokohamas would give a better ride than Defenders. Who cares if they ware a bit faster. I love the Yokohamas on my Mazda CX-5.

I've ran Michelin energy saver A/S tires for the past 100,000. Wore out 2 sets and just put on my third. They do everything I need which is the unholy quest for more Nissan leaf range.

 

[NorthstarredToyota]

@CapriRacer

I think this might be it. But, I don't have access:
https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-performance-when-tires-are-worn-a8910439854/

Hi edyvw,

I do.

What Happens to Performance When Tires Are Worn?​

Consumer Reports' tests compare tire performance of full and reduced tread depth

By Consumer Reports

Updated July 25, 2024

Incidentally, I strongly recommend a Consumer Reports subscription, old school print paper, or on line digital, the April Auto Issue has real world Deming style statistical data on the reliability of hundreds of cars. In my experience, comparing the data to cars I've have, it's always been spot on.

Please subscribe, and no I do not get a commission:

https://www.consumerreports.org/sem...RERDNlY7n0RvMeuPKa4aAojgEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has found that by the time a tire’s tread is down to 4⁄32", which may take years, tire wear plays a measurable role in accidents.

To quantify how wear changes tire performance, the CR tire team measured the wet stopping performance and hydroplaning resistance of 23 performance all-season tires with full tread, which typically measures between 9⁄32" and 11⁄32", when new, and compared it against the same model tires shaved to 4⁄32".

This is why I don't get cheap tires, driving in LA and San Diego on a regular basis:

New tire wet braking performance varies by model, sometimes by a lot. The span in stopping distances is between 127 and 175 feet. That’s about three car lengths of variation. If you frequently drive in wet weather, look for a tire model that scores well in our wet braking test.

• Less tread means longer stops on wet surfaces. It took longer for a car to stop when tire tread depth was reduced to 4⁄32". Tires with reduced tread depth took an average of almost 30 feet more to stop on wet pavement compared with new tires with full tread.


Some tires lose more grip than others over time. One tire model only went an additional 3 feet in wet stopping performance with tread loss. Other models were not as resilient; one model took 51 feet more to stop with its reduced tread depth.

Well, this is disappointing: I was expecting a full page chart with stopping distances--apparently they don't share that data?

Maybe they are afraid of being sued by the losers? They would win in court--I am sure their data is fairly derived and reproducible--but court costs can still kill you even if you "win".

Article jumps to recommended tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, Michelin Cross Climate 2, Nokian Happawatta, Continental Extreme Contact, Hankook Winter icept, Bridgestone, BF Goodrich, Vredestein, More Michelins, Pirelli, etc--lots of subdata you need the subscription to see.

What I don't see: Low end tires like Sentury, Westlake, Arizonian, etc. They apparently (based on CR data) don't stop or turn a car as well as higher end tires.

Overall tire brand report card: top five are

• Michelin, 72 score
• Continental
• Vredestein
• General
• Bridgestone 65 score

Bottom five

• Falken, 60 score
• Firestone
• sumitomo
• GT Radial
• Nitto 53 score

Here they say what edyvw has been saying:

"No. 1: Michelin. Score: 72

Michelin is at or near the top of most tire categories we test. Typically, Michelin models offer a good mix of grip, handling, and long tread life. And even though Michelins are often among the most expensive models, they tend to be a good value when factoring in performance and tread life."

And hospital/medical/funeral costs. See above about NHTSB and worn tires being associated with more accidents.

Again, sorry CR doesn't show their data--maybe it was printed in the magazine version?

Incidentally, last year I was looking at replacing 4 tires on a 2 ton 300 HP GM sedan, and I looked at the Sentury tires closely. California car, not driven hard, etc. On paper, the Sentury tires looked good, and were less than half the cost of the Michelins I ended up getting. But, right after I put them on, California was hit with a series of big rainstorms, huge for California, more than doubled the usual annual rainfall, and I was very glad to have the Michelins driving in those storms. They handled the heavy rainfall well, tracked sure and true.

And no, not a Michelin dealer, and I don't get a commission there either.

 

[benjamming]

The issue with that, it would seem to me, is that it varies so much by model & grouping by manufacturer on a specific item of concern is foolhardy at best without the actual data at least the spread of scores.
So, just go to TireRack where they do publish their test results & show wet & dry braking distance for quite a few tires. Of course, comparing tires from different vehicles would be silly, almost as silly as reading the user reviews.

 

[drtyler]

This is all good, and Michelin makes many excellent tires that are worth the cost premium. The Defender2 passenger car tire is not one of them.

Hi edyvw,

I do.



To quantify how wear changes tire performance, the CR tire team measured the wet stopping performance and hydroplaning resistance of 23 performance all-season tires with full tread, which typically measures between 9⁄32" and 11⁄32", when new, and compared it against the same model tires shaved to 4⁄32".


New tire wet braking performance varies by model, sometimes by a lot. The span in stopping distances is between 127 and 175 feet. That’s about three car lengths of variation. If you frequently drive in wet weather, look for a tire model that scores well in our wet braking test.


Well, this is disappointing: I was expecting a full page chart with stopping distances--apparently they don't share that data?

Maybe they are afraid of being sued by the losers? They would win in court--I am sure their data is fairly derived and reproducible--but court costs can still kill you even if you "win".

Article jumps to recommended tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, Michelin Cross Climate 2, Nokian Happawatta, Continental Extreme Contact, Hankook Winter icept, Bridgestone, BF Goodrich, Vredestein, More Michelins, Pirelli, etc--lots of subdata you need the subscription to see.

What I don't see: Low end tires like Sentury, Westlake, Arizonian, etc. They apparently (based on CR data) don't stop or turn a car as well as higher end tires.

Overall tire brand report card: top five are

• Michelin, 72 score
• Continental
• Vredestein
• General
• Bridgestone 65 score

Bottom five

• Falken, 60 score
• Firestone
• sumitomo
• GT Radial
• Nitto 53 score

Here they say what edyvw has been saying:

"No. 1: Michelin. Score: 72

Michelin is at or near the top of most tire categories we test. Typically, Michelin models offer a good mix of grip, handling, and long tread life. And even though Michelins are often among the most expensive models, they tend to be a good value when factoring in performance and tread life."

And hospital/medical/funeral costs. See above about NHTSB and worn tires being associated with more accidents.

Again, sorry CR doesn't show their data--maybe it was printed in the magazine version?

Incidentally, last year I was looking at replacing 4 tires on a 2 ton 300 HP GM sedan, and I looked at the Sentury tires closely. California car, not driven hard, etc. On paper, the Sentury tires looked good, and were less than half the cost of the Michelins I ended up getting. But, right after I put them on, California was hit with a series of big rainstorms, huge for California, more than doubled the usual annual rainfall, and I was very glad to have the Michelins driving in those storms. They handled the heavy rainfall well, tracked sure and true.

And no, not a Michelin dealer, and I don't get a commission there either.

 

[NorthstarredToyota]

PS OP:

From Consumer Reports:

"Score 60


Performance All-Season Tires

Yokohama Avid Ascend GT Tire​

Satisfaction 3/5

"The tire gets high scores for dry braking, handling, resistance to hydroplaning, and snow traction. "

"CR's Take

The Avid Ascend GT performs well in most conditions over cleared roads and light snow."

"Braking stops on ice were rated just fair."

Higher rated:

• Continental PureContact LS 67
• Hankook Kinergy 4s2
• General Altimax 365 AW 66
• Goodyear Assurance WeatherReady 65
• Vredestein Quatrac Pro
• Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus II 63
• Yokohama Avid Ascend LX 62

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tires/c200973/#categories=200978

 

[OVERKILL]

PS OP:

From Consumer Reports:

"Score 60


Performance All-Season Tires

Yokohama Avid Ascend GT Tire​

Satisfaction 3/5

"The tire gets high scores for dry braking, handling, resistance to hydroplaning, and snow traction. "

"CR's Take

The Avid Ascend GT performs well in most conditions over cleared roads and light snow."

"Braking stops on ice were rated just fair."

Higher rated:

• Continental PureContact LS 67
• Hankook Kinergy 4s2
• General Altimax 365 AW 66
• Goodyear Assurance WeatherReady 65
• Vredestein Quatrac Pro
• Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus II 63
• Yokohama Avid Ascend LX 62

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tires/c200973/#categories=200978

Seems like a clear case for the Conti's IMHO.

 

[NorthstarredToyota]

Seems like a clear case for the Conti's IMHO.

Owner satisfaction 4/5

The Continental PureContact LS is the best handling tire we tested among peer models. High marks for grip on dry, wet, and snow covered roads, very good hydroplaning resistance, and a long 75,000 mile projected wear based on CR's test.

CR's Take:

The PureContact LS ranks second to the Michelin CrossClimate2, offering well rounded grip , long tread life, and exceptional handling.

"CR Recommended"

 

[camrydriver111]

PS OP:

From Consumer Reports:

"Score 60


Performance All-Season Tires

Yokohama Avid Ascend GT Tire​

Satisfaction 3/5

"The tire gets high scores for dry braking, handling, resistance to hydroplaning, and snow traction. "

"CR's Take

The Avid Ascend GT performs well in most conditions over cleared roads and light snow."

"Braking stops on ice were rated just fair."

Higher rated:

• Continental PureContact LS 67
• Hankook Kinergy 4s2
• General Altimax 365 AW 66
• Goodyear Assurance WeatherReady 65
• Vredestein Quatrac Pro
• Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus II 63
• Yokohama Avid Ascend LX 62

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tires/c200973/#categories=200978

The ranking seems similar to other tests.

Those Hankooks were tested by Tire Reviews and were second place to CC2.

 

[edyvw]

Hi edyvw,

I do.



To quantify how wear changes tire performance, the CR tire team measured the wet stopping performance and hydroplaning resistance of 23 performance all-season tires with full tread, which typically measures between 9⁄32" and 11⁄32", when new, and compared it against the same model tires shaved to 4⁄32".


New tire wet braking performance varies by model, sometimes by a lot. The span in stopping distances is between 127 and 175 feet. That’s about three car lengths of variation. If you frequently drive in wet weather, look for a tire model that scores well in our wet braking test.


Well, this is disappointing: I was expecting a full page chart with stopping distances--apparently they don't share that data?

Maybe they are afraid of being sued by the losers? They would win in court--I am sure their data is fairly derived and reproducible--but court costs can still kill you even if you "win".

Article jumps to recommended tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, Michelin Cross Climate 2, Nokian Happawatta, Continental Extreme Contact, Hankook Winter icept, Bridgestone, BF Goodrich, Vredestein, More Michelins, Pirelli, etc--lots of subdata you need the subscription to see.

What I don't see: Low end tires like Sentury, Westlake, Arizonian, etc. They apparently (based on CR data) don't stop or turn a car as well as higher end tires.

Overall tire brand report card: top five are

• Michelin, 72 score
• Continental
• Vredestein
• General
• Bridgestone 65 score

Bottom five

• Falken, 60 score
• Firestone
• sumitomo
• GT Radial
• Nitto 53 score

Here they say what edyvw has been saying:

"No. 1: Michelin. Score: 72

Michelin is at or near the top of most tire categories we test. Typically, Michelin models offer a good mix of grip, handling, and long tread life. And even though Michelins are often among the most expensive models, they tend to be a good value when factoring in performance and tread life."

And hospital/medical/funeral costs. See above about NHTSB and worn tires being associated with more accidents.

Again, sorry CR doesn't show their data--maybe it was printed in the magazine version?

Incidentally, last year I was looking at replacing 4 tires on a 2 ton 300 HP GM sedan, and I looked at the Sentury tires closely. California car, not driven hard, etc. On paper, the Sentury tires looked good, and were less than half the cost of the Michelins I ended up getting. But, right after I put them on, California was hit with a series of big rainstorms, huge for California, more than doubled the usual annual rainfall, and I was very glad to have the Michelins driving in those storms. They handled the heavy rainfall well, tracked sure and true.

And no, not a Michelin dealer, and I don't get a commission there either.

Hey,
I think the one with actual performance data might be older test. Maybe you should check some of those. I think someone posted data here before that one from 2024 was published.

 

[FordBroncoVWJeta]

Thank You everyone for your replies. Picking an option was harder than I thought it would be . Nearly half went with Yokohama and half with Michelin for suggestions. Other suggestions were too expensive as the options I provided had a hefty discount on them as they were price matched.

A couple days after making this post, I accepted a part time job with a 150 mile round commute. Putting that into the equation my mileage is going to go up dramatically. It seemed to make more sense to go with the Michelin's after that with the longer wear.

 

[oil pan 4]

Hi edyvw,

I do.



To quantify how wear changes tire performance, the CR tire team measured the wet stopping performance and hydroplaning resistance of 23 performance all-season tires with full tread, which typically measures between 9⁄32" and 11⁄32", when new, and compared it against the same model tires shaved to 4⁄32".


New tire wet braking performance varies by model, sometimes by a lot. The span in stopping distances is between 127 and 175 feet. That’s about three car lengths of variation. If you frequently drive in wet weather, look for a tire model that scores well in our wet braking test.


Well, this is disappointing: I was expecting a full page chart with stopping distances--apparently they don't share that data?

Maybe they are afraid of being sued by the losers? They would win in court--I am sure their data is fairly derived and reproducible--but court costs can still kill you even if you "win".

Article jumps to recommended tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, Michelin Cross Climate 2, Nokian Happawatta, Continental Extreme Contact, Hankook Winter icept, Bridgestone, BF Goodrich, Vredestein, More Michelins, Pirelli, etc--lots of subdata you need the subscription to see.

What I don't see: Low end tires like Sentury, Westlake, Arizonian, etc. They apparently (based on CR data) don't stop or turn a car as well as higher end tires.

Overall tire brand report card: top five are

• Michelin, 72 score
• Continental
• Vredestein
• General
• Bridgestone 65 score

Bottom five

• Falken, 60 score
• Firestone
• sumitomo
• GT Radial
• Nitto 53 score

Here they say what edyvw has been saying:

"No. 1: Michelin. Score: 72

Michelin is at or near the top of most tire categories we test. Typically, Michelin models offer a good mix of grip, handling, and long tread life. And even though Michelins are often among the most expensive models, they tend to be a good value when factoring in performance and tread life."

And hospital/medical/funeral costs. See above about NHTSB and worn tires being associated with more accidents.

Again, sorry CR doesn't show their data--maybe it was printed in the magazine version?

Incidentally, last year I was looking at replacing 4 tires on a 2 ton 300 HP GM sedan, and I looked at the Sentury tires closely. California car, not driven hard, etc. On paper, the Sentury tires looked good, and were less than half the cost of the Michelins I ended up getting. But, right after I put them on, California was hit with a series of big rainstorms, huge for California, more than doubled the usual annual rainfall, and I was very glad to have the Michelins driving in those storms. They handled the heavy rainfall well, tracked sure and true.

And no, not a Michelin dealer, and I don't get a commission there either.

For me I get snow every other year and around 12 days of rain per year so wintery performance and wet braking are nearly irrelevant here.
So for about 12 days usually part of those 12 days and not the whole day all I need to do is slow down a little and not drive 75mph.

 

[oil pan 4]

Thank You everyone for your replies. Picking an option was harder than I thought it would be . Nearly half went with Yokohama and half with Michelin for suggestions. Other suggestions were too expensive as the options I provided had a hefty discount on them as they were price matched.

A couple days after making this post, I accepted a part time job with a 150 mile round commute. Putting that into the equation my mileage is going to go up dramatically. It seemed to make more sense to go with the Michelin's after that with the longer wear.


View attachment 245762

Yeah I've worn out 2 sets of Michelin energy saver AS and I run my leaf hard. They're supposed to go 50,000 miles and I could get 50,000 if I ran them down to the wear bars.