Triple Lab Showdown - HPL Premium Plus PCMO 0W-30

I so desperately want to work with one of these labs and run a gauge R&R trial, but I suspect they wouldn't like the results. I believe the reliability part is probably decent on a well-maintained machine. The reproducibility part is in question. Many of these ICP tests can be very accurate; the problem lies in the human interaction (mixing up samples; not fully vetting a clean sample source, aka cross contamination; not getting a good purge between samples; etc).

UOAs are reasonably accurate, but this is one reason I always say that 30 samples is a minimum; it will help dull the occasional blunder skews.
 
I so desperately want to work with one of these labs and run a gauge R&R trial, but I suspect they wouldn't like the results. I believe the reliability part is probably decent on a well-maintained machine. The reproducibility part is in question. Many of these ICP tests can be very accurate; the problem lies in the human interaction (mixing up samples; not fully vetting a clean sample source, aka cross contamination; not getting a good purge between samples; etc).

UOAs are reasonably accurate, but this is one reason I always say that 30 samples is a minimum; it will help dull the occasional blunder skews.
A few years ago I looked into this.
$40k buys the machine and all you need.... Forget the brand and model but I have the emails...yeah going away now 😁
 
No I would still do it but have been on a two year move and didn't want to haul it around. I like the idea of it and I asked them tons of questions.

When I get to my final house, I'll pull the trigger.
Plus all the support equipment, training, compressed gas and multiple element standards. Member edhacket also noted that daily calibration and standardization takes an hour or so.

When I ran analysis samples in college we ran a standard solution immediately prior to each element evaluation and then again immediately after to bracket the element under test. No doubt different these days (that was AA) but still I’m sure it’s not a trivial task if you wish to obtain accurate results.
 
Plus all the support equipment, training, compressed gas and multiple element standards. Member edhacket also noted that daily calibration and standardization takes an hour or so.

When I ran analysis samples in college we ran a standard solution immediately prior to each element evaluation and then again immediately after to bracket the element under test. No doubt different these days (that was AA) but still I’m sure it’s not a trivial task if you wish to obtain accurate results.
Too much work for retired loafer such as myself.
 
When I ran analysis samples in college we ran a standard solution immediately prior to each element evaluation and then again immediately after to bracket the element under test. No doubt different these days (that was AA) but still I’m sure it’s not a trivial task if you wish to obtain accurate results.

Yes; this. Unfortunately, there is often an discrepancy between academia and the private sector. Private companies have to make money to survive, and at times, they do what they believe is best for them. And "best" might be a compromise between the most accurate method on one hand, and the most profit on the other.

Therein lies my concern, in part. I doubt these labs are purging between every sample. I know for a fact BS does not; I was there in the lab watching them run the tests for the article I wrote many years back. I doubt they've changed their methodology. Back then, they would run 8 samples of lubes, and then run a check-sample on the 9th cycle using pure mineral oil (IIRC). Why 9th? IIRC, the little trays held 8 sample bottles, so they check after running each full tray. Now, I cannot say if this is proper or not, as I've not been able to ever get to "test" my theory.

I also suspect that other popular labs also don't purge or check between samples. Time is money, as is said; they want to maximize profits. It "wastes" a lot of time/money to do so. Don't for one second think that this potential issue is unique to BS; I suspect they all are at risk.

Specifically, my concern is how the ICP machines transfer the fluids prior to the plasma burn. I'm not really concerned about the burn cycle; I think that's very accurate. My issue is that there is some amount of fluid between the sample container (typically a glass vial or similar), and the piping which draws the sample into the machine, then injects that sample into the plasma stream. Unless you "purge" the full tract, there's going to be residual results in the samples; one relative to the next. For BS, the samples run in the ICP are only 1ml in volume! That's a very small sample, and so it's not inconceivable that cross-contamination between samples in the form of residuals is in play.

When samples are run back-to-back, with no purge or check in between, there are two possible outcomes:
- if the samples are similar in nature, what little cross-contamination which exists is unlikely to greatly skew the results. If sample A has 15 ppm of Fe, and sample B has 17ppm of Fe, then any residual in the sample tract is really not going to push the results badly one way or another.
- if the samples are very different, cross contamination can potentially be an issue. If sample A has 38ppm of Al and sample B has 5ppm of Al, then there's likely to be some effect in the results, one relative to the other.


Now, I want to be very clear ... I have no proof of this, but it would be very easy to prove out with a few gauge R&R tests. But like I said previously, I don't think any of the labs are interested in the results, as they may not be favorable.
 
Am I wrong in thinking that you should not be including the brand of oil being sent, as it is irrelevant? Maybe starting viscosity, and hours\miles used....and that is it. Giving the least info possible to the tester seems to me would yield the most accurate results.?

Actually Blackstone didn't know what the sample was when they ran it so you're seeing their blind result, the first report I got it was just labled "unkown" but when I told them what it was it didn't change anything. Oil Analyzers thought it was M1 AFE since that was what I sent them before (despite me filling out both the electronic and paper submission forms indicating that it was HPL) but they also thought there was something wrong with it. I tried to go back and see what I had filled out on the electronic submission for the Oil Analyzers sample but the app says "update failed because of an error" anytime I try to go back and look. SpeeDiagnostix was the only one that seemed to understand what the sample was but I'm not sure why their Moly reading was off the charts.
 
How do we know they're not the correct one?
Because they are notoriously off when compared in multiple UOAs from different labs with the same sample.

I also think that because they are the busiest lab, that they are more likely to cut corners in order to get the samples done quicker, so I’d be surprised if they performed as many calibrations as the other labs
 
IMO only if they're comparing from two different labs or more.
How can you recommend that? You’ve only seen one result from each lab. There’s no guarantee from the data available that each lab’s numbers are repeatable even to itself. To be able to know “for sure” whose equipment was statistically repeatable and reliable (meaning the only difference in their system’s measurements was the sample composition itself), you’d need at a minimum:
3 operators
10 different samples each with enough oil to allow 9 tests each
3 repetitions for each operator/sample

3x10x3 = 90 UOA samples, PER LAB. Less than that is just as much of a guess as you made now, and why it’s recommended to use the same lab in the hopes that their machine is calibrated and repeatable.

The cost for that amount of testing would be ~$10 per oil (quart) and ~$35 per sample, so ($10x10)+($35x90) or $3,250 per lab at retail prices. Or, $10k to figure out which of the three labs is the “best”.
 
This just reinforces why I'd rather spend the money on an oil change than on an 'oil analysis'.
Same here. By the time he sends the used oil in for analysis, even to just one lab, it just doesn't seem to make sense in the cost vs benefits category.

Thanks for posting the results, OP. I keep hearing about HPL but never new what it was till now. 😊
 
Here (on line 2) is the amdended oil analyzers VOA for the HPL premium plus PCMO 0W-30. I plan to deduct the 9 ppm aluminum in future UOA using this oil. They unflagged the Al and corrected the product information. Line 1 is the M1 AFE 0W-30 I was using before.
HPLpppcmo0W30rerun.webp
 
BS only one that measures Boron & SD doubling the Molybdenum. Thanks for putting it in an easy to read spreadsheet. Reminder that sticking to one lab is a wise decision.
I got an answer from LSJr on why the lab SD uses reports much higher levels of molybdenum than others. He said SD's lab uses RDE vs ICP, without saying ICP is the method used by other specific labs.

"Most labs use the ICP method, which only sees particles up to about 5 microns. We use the RDE method which can detect particles up to about 10 microns. Because of that, Molybdenum levels are different between the methods due to Molybdenum forming platelets of various sizes."

In this article discussing Molybdenum disulphide as an oil additive, they mention "Molybdenum disulphide takes the form of microscopic hexagonal platelets, with several molecules making up each platelet."

Here is a link to a Philips 66 paper on "Understanding Differences in Elemental Analysis Methods" which talks about ICP vs RDE. Their summary pretty much says it all:

"If you are relying on one method at a lab for your used oils, then you should also use the same method at the same lab for the new oil reference for proper comparison. Finally, one elemental analysis report should not be taken as absolute, instead trends in the data should be observed over a historical period while comparing to a new oil reference."


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