Toyota's "Hybrid Math"

[sentra]

I sometimes wonder if the typical car buyer is so dumb that he/she would base their purchase decision, partially or wholly, on such nonsense.

http://hybridmath.ca/HybridMath/doTheMath.aspx


Even ignoring the fact that a fair comparison would have been hybrids of different manufacturers, to make a case for a Toyota hybrid, the numbers have been "tweaked" to a point that it's not even funny.

 

[Cujet]

Bloody impressive! A lease rate with interest. And costs that are skewed through artificial means.

 

[simple_gifts]

The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it. A recent post referenced "the Prius battery fiasco"; Can someone point me to the $3000 replacement everyone needs to do?

 

[HerrStig]

I thought is was the VOLT fiasco

 

[Gabe]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it.


Lets look at at the owner loyalties numbers:

35% of hybrid owners buy another one; let compare that to 51% Ford owner loyalty or Chevy's 52% owner loyalty. For whatever the reasons, the people who have the most experience with hybrids do not want another one.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it. A recent post referenced "the Prius battery fiasco"; Can someone point me to the $3000 replacement everyone needs to do?


+1
The math is correct. And there is interest on a lease. These guys are simply uninformed. Hybrids are not for everyone. But the cost of fuel has increased over 100% in the past 48 months. So fuel cost is a big consideration.

 

[simple_gifts]

Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it.


Lets look at at the owner loyalties numbers:

35% of hybrid owners buy another one; let compare that to 51% Ford owner loyalty or Chevy's 52% owner loyalty. For whatever the reasons, the people who have the most experience with hybrids do not want another one.


You are comparing repurchase plans of one type car versus the entire product line of other companies? okay.....

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it.


Lets look at at the owner loyalties numbers:

35% of hybrid owners buy another one; let compare that to 51% Ford owner loyalty or Chevy's 52% owner loyalty. For whatever the reasons, the people who have the most experience with hybrids do not want another one.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it.


Lets look at at the owner loyalties numbers:

35% of hybrid owners buy another one; let compare that to 51% Ford owner loyalty or Chevy's 52% owner loyalty. For whatever the reasons, the people who have the most experience with hybrids do not want another one.



You are comparing repurchase plans of one type car versus the entire product line of other companies? okay.....


Exactly. There are only so many types of hybrids, and they may not suit everybody. Say a Honda Civic Hybrid owner needs a larger vehicle since they have child #3 on the way. I don't know of any 3-row hybrids out there right now. So their next vehicle purchase will not be a hybrid.

Hybrids and fuel-economy specials do work out for some folks. In my case, the price difference between a fuel-economy-special and a base model was roughly $2000 in MSRP. I've run the numbers and have made up $1500 of that difference in 1 year in improved fuel economy. So by the end of year 2, I'll have saved $1000 over buying a less fuel-efficient base vehicle. That's a lot of gas.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: sentra
I sometimes wonder if the typical car buyer is so dumb that he/she would base their purchase decision, partially or wholly, on such nonsense.

http://hybridmath.ca/HybridMath/doTheMath.aspx


Even ignoring the fact that a fair comparison would have been hybrids of different manufacturers, to make a case for a Toyota hybrid, the numbers have been "tweaked" to a point that it's not even funny.


I don't see any nonsense. Cost of ownership is mostly monthly payment plus cost of gas.

The real nonsense is how people try to prove that Hammers are more eco friendly than Prius. There you have some really creative math. Somehow, I don't see many of those eco friendly Hammers driving around. I wonder why that is?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: sentra
I sometimes wonder if the typical car buyer is so dumb that he/she would base their purchase decision, partially or wholly, on such nonsense.

http://hybridmath.ca/HybridMath/doTheMath.aspx


Even ignoring the fact that a fair comparison would have been hybrids of different manufacturers, to make a case for a Toyota hybrid, the numbers have been "tweaked" to a point that it's not even funny.


It's a personal decision, not a religious one.

But many hybrid owners are rabid in their defense of the 'perfect' vehicle, even up to the point of maligning your patriotism if you use more fuel than they do! Expect emotion, not true facts.

Very simply put, we cannot run our biz with hybrids. No one makes one with the necessary configuration to add our equipment and operate them economically. So we're stuck with gas hogs, and we like them. Plus, I simply don't like driving them.

I thank God we don't have to listen to all the 'better informed' who imagine that hybrids will somehow save the world!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it.


Lets look at at the owner loyalties numbers:

35% of hybrid owners buy another one; let compare that to 51% Ford owner loyalty or Chevy's 52% owner loyalty. For whatever the reasons, the people who have the most experience with hybrids do not want another one.



You are comparing repurchase plans of one type car versus the entire product line of other companies? okay.....


Exactly. There are only so many types of hybrids, and they may not suit everybody. Say a Honda Civic Hybrid owner needs a larger vehicle since they have child #3 on the way. I don't know of any 3-row hybrids out there right now. So their next vehicle purchase will not be a hybrid.

Hybrids and fuel-economy specials do work out for some folks. In my case, the price difference between a fuel-economy-special and a base model was roughly $2000 in MSRP. I've run the numbers and have made up $1500 of that difference in 1 year in improved fuel economy. So by the end of year 2, I'll have saved $1000 over buying a less fuel-efficient base vehicle. That's a lot of gas.


Isn't thee Highlander Hybrid available with 3 rows?

 

[cptbarkey]

the only hybrid that toyota makes sense is the prius-c. the rest are for people with guilty consciences.

 

[sentra]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


It's a personal decision, not a religious one.

But many hybrid owners are rabid in their defense of the 'perfect' vehicle, even up to the point of maligning your patriotism if you use more fuel than they do! Expect emotion, not true facts.

Very simply put, we cannot run our biz with hybrids. No one makes one with the necessary configuration to add our equipment and operate them economically. So we're stuck with gas hogs, and we like them. Plus, I simply don't like driving them.

I thank God we don't have to listen to all the 'better informed' who imagine that hybrids will somehow save the world!


I agree that hybrids don't make sense for many people; and more importantly, one shouldn't have to make apologies for the fact that they don't drive a hybrid.

Research has indicated how environmentally devastating intensive production of "green" ethanol from corn can be, and similarly, rare-earth minerals such as dysprosium and neodymium used in hybrid and plug-in vehicles and other consumer electronics don't just appear out thin air. Their ecological and social footprint provokes some very troubling thoughts.

I refuse to accept that the use of a hybrid is "environmentally friendly," a message that we are incessantly bombarded with, simply because its fuel consumption is less than that of a non-hybrid.

 

[sentra]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


I don't see any nonsense. Cost of ownership is mostly monthly payment plus cost of gas.

The real nonsense is how people try to prove that Hammers are more eco friendly than Prius. There you have some really creative math. Somehow, I don't see many of those eco friendly Hammers driving around. I wonder why that is?


Without the "creative math," as you have put it, the case to purchase a hybrid as opposed to a non-hybrid simply isn't there. I am critical of the figures and assumptions used by Toyota in the advertisement, not the environmental and/or social impact of a hybrid, which is completely different debate.

To make the numbers work for the hybrid, Toyota has assumed one would be driving the Mazda and the Fusion for about 24,000 kms per year, which is 4000 kms more than the basic kilometer per year lease allowance offered by Mazda here in BC.

I would like to sell a very profitable investment to the person who makes their decision to purchase a Toyota hybrid based on those numbers.

 

[neevers]

Originally Posted By: sentra
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


It's a personal decision, not a religious one.

But many hybrid owners are rabid in their defense of the 'perfect' vehicle, even up to the point of maligning your patriotism if you use more fuel than they do! Expect emotion, not true facts.

Very simply put, we cannot run our biz with hybrids. No one makes one with the necessary configuration to add our equipment and operate them economically. So we're stuck with gas hogs, and we like them. Plus, I simply don't like driving them.

I thank God we don't have to listen to all the 'better informed' who imagine that hybrids will somehow save the world!


I agree that hybrids don't make sense for many people; and more importantly, one shouldn't have to make apologies for the fact that they don't drive a hybrid.

Research has indicated how environmentally devastating intensive production of "green" ethanol from corn can be, and similarly, rare-earth minerals such as dysprosium and neodymium used in hybrid and plug-in vehicles and other consumer electronics don't just appear out thin air. Their ecological and social footprint provokes some very troubling thoughts.

I refuse to accept that the use of a hybrid is "environmentally friendly," a message that we are incessantly bombarded with, simply because its fuel consumption is less than that of a non-hybrid.


They aren't, especially if it's shipped over from Japan, like the Prius are.

After doing a lot of research and math, I've found that the 2011 Ford Mustang GT, is actually more environmentally friendly than the Prius, until about 120,000 miles. Believe it or not.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
The real nonsense is the amount of effort people who don't like the car will go to to malign the vehicle, even tho there is a 10+ solid track record behind it.


Lets look at at the owner loyalties numbers:

35% of hybrid owners buy another one; let compare that to 51% Ford owner loyalty or Chevy's 52% owner loyalty. For whatever the reasons, the people who have the most experience with hybrids do not want another one.


This has come up before, but I'll repeat it again: that is the most flawed logic I've ever seen. Hybrids comprise a tiny fraction of new models, 3-5%, yet hybrid owners are 35% as likely to purchase a hybrid. If someone owns a Prius and they buy a vehicle in a different category with no hybrid alternative, they "aren't loyal" to hybrids? This pretty much defines "selective reasoning".

That said, I agree that ad is ridiculous...

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: neevers


They aren't, especially if it's shipped over from Japan, like the Prius are.

After doing a lot of research and math, I've found that the 2011 Ford Mustang GT, is actually more environmentally friendly than the Prius, until about 120,000 miles. Believe it or not.


Can you share any of this research and math with us?

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Cost of ownership is mostly monthly payment plus cost of gas.


Cost of ownership = cost of vehicle payments made+ cost of fuel + cost of insurance + cost of financing + cost of repairs + cost of maintenance and parts.

Minus amount of resale dollars recouped.

 

[Doog]

After doing a lot of research and math, I've found that the 2011 Ford Mustang GT, is actually more environmentally friendly than the Prius, until about 120,000 miles. Believe it or not.


I believe it if you are talking about the v6 model.