Toyota Recall

[brianl703]

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This thread was started in order to bash on Toyota. The fact that somebody is calling you on it ought to be enough for you to let it drop.

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This thread was started because I saw a recall for Toyota and I thought I'd post it here. I really didn't expect for you to have such an issue with it. I'm sorry about that. Should I check with you in the future before posting any more Toyota recalls? I assume other manufacturer's recalls are OK--you didn't seem to have an issue with my posting the Honda recall.

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But if your intentions are unclear to anyone here, all they need to do is take a look at your posting history.

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I'm gratified that you've taken the time to look at my posting history because, as you know, I won't bother to look at yours.

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Furthermore, at over 5,000 posts, you certainly seem to have an opinion on just about everything...

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Really? All of my 5,000 posts are just opinion, huh? How many of them did you actually read?

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Just admit the real reason why you started this topic and let it die; the only other alternatives are for a moderator to close this thread or for both of us to be banned.

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Why should you care what my motivations for posting this information here are? This I do not get. I posted it without commentary. You're the first person to have posted any commentary about it on this thread, and apparently didn't like it when I pointed out that 3.5 years isn't really timely and that this is the second balljoint recall.

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I susupect the latter would have a bigger impact upon your social life than mine.

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I suspect you suspect wrong. I'm not the one looking at other's posting history to determine their motivation for posting something, and then accuse them of attempting to start trouble or whatever it is you think I was trying to do when I posted this recall.

And with that, I am done. You can have the last word. I suspect you want it.

 

[g20ooh]

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Sorry Toyota bashers,
Define " Toyota bashers "

 

[g20ooh]

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I see no problem with this; Automobiles are highly technical machines and I don't begrudge any manufacturer (foreign or domestic) for quickly following up on situations/problems that only arise when hundreds of thousands of them are on the road. There are only so many scenarios you can test for in development, especially with consumers demand model revamps every four years.

Where I would fault a manufacturer is when there are hundreds/thousands of reported incidents and they still shirk their recall responsibilities. Eleven reported incidents? I consider such a timely reponse by Toyota to be acceptable. However, I'm sure some here will enjoy a shadenfreude moment...

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Shadenfreude it is .


Defect Summary

Make: TOYOTA
Model: TUNDRA
Year: 2004
NHTSA Action Number: EA06014
Summary:
ON MAY 16 , 2005 , TOYOTA SUBMITTED A DEFECT INFORMATION REPORT TO NHTSA'S OFFICE OF DEFECTS INVESTIGATION (ODI) REGARDING A DEFECT CONDITION THAT COULD RESULT IN LOWER BALL JOINT SEPARATION IN CERTAIN MODEL YEAR (MY) 2001 THROUGH 2004 TOYOTA TUNDRA, SEQUOIA, TACOMA AND 4RUNNER VEHICLES (RECALL 05V-225, ODI INVESTIGATION EA04-024). TOYOTA'S RECALL INCLUDED APPROXIMATELY 775,000 VEHICLES BUILT DURING A PERIOD IN WHICH THE ASSEMBLY PROCESS COULD HAVE PRODUCED SCRATCHES ON THE BALL SURFACE, WHICH COULD RESULT IN ACCELERATED WEAR OF THE JOINTS. THE LOWER BALL JOINTS WERE REPLACED IN THE RECALLED VEHICLES. ODI OPENED RQ06-005 BASED ON FOUR CONSUMER REPORTS OF ALLEGED BALL JOINT FAILURE IN TUNDRA VEHICLES THAT WERE NOT INCLUDED IN RECALL 05V-225. THE COMPLAINTS ALLEGED INCIDENTS OF FRONT SUSPENSION LOWER BALL JOINT SEPARATION WHILE DRIVING, RESULTING IN SUSPENSION COLLAPSE AND LOSS OF VEHICLE CONTROL. DURING RQ06-005 ODI IDENTIFIED 112 (50.7 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) UNIQUE LOWER BALL JOINT SEPARATION INCIDENTS. THESE INCIDENTS INCLUDE CONSUMER COMPLAINTS, FIELD REPORTS AND WARRANTY CLAIMS FOR THE MY 2004-2005 TUNDRA VEHICLES. ALL OF THE REPORTED INCIDENTS WERE OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF RECALL 05V-225, AND THERE IS SOME DUPLICATION BETWEEN COMPLAINTS AND WARRANTY. ALSO, FURTHER EXAMINATION SHOWED THAT THE AVERAGE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 53,234 MILES AND THAT OF THE 112 INCIDENTS, 65 (66.3 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) WERE ON FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES, WHICH MAKE UP APPROXIMATELY 44% OF THE MY 2004-2005 POPULATION (220,826 VEHICLES). THE REMAINING 56% ARE TWO-WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES WHICH EXPERIENCED A TOTAL OF 47 (38.2 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) BALL JOINT SEPARATIONS. THIS INVESTIGATION HAS BEEN UPGRADED TO AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS.






Defect Summary

Make: TOYOTA
Model: TUNDRA
Year: 2004
NHTSA Action Number: RQ06005
Summary:
THE OFFICE OF DEFECTS INVESTIGATIONS (ODI) OPENED RQ06-005 BASED ON FOUR CONSUMER REPORTS OF ALLEGED BALL JOINT FAILURE. THE COMPLAINTS ALLEGE THAT A FRONT SUSPENSION BALL JOINT SEPARATED WHILE DRIVING, WHICH CAUSED THE SUSPENSION TO COLLAPSE AND RESULTED IN A LOSS OF VEHICLE CONTROL. ALL OF THESE COMPLAINTS INVOLVED THE FAILURE OF A LOWER TENSION-TYPE BALL JOINT. DURING THE INVESTIGATION THERE WERE 39 (36.7 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) COMPLAINTS AND 74 (69.6 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) WARRANTY CLAIMS FOR THE 2004 MODEL YEAR (MY) TOYOTA TUNDRA. FURTHER ANALYSIS SHOWED THAT THE AVERAGE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 54,025 MILES , AND THAT OF THE 109 UNIQUE BALL JOINT SEPARATION INCIDENTS , 64 ( 133 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) WERE ON FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES, WHICH MAKE UP APPROXIMATELY 45% OF THE 2004 MY POPULATION (106,346 VEHICLES). THE REMAINING 55% ARE TWO-WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES WHICH EXPERIENCED A TOTAL OF 45 (77 PER 100,000 VEHICLES) BALL JOINT SEPARATIONS. ALSO, THROUGHOUT THE INVESTIGATION THERE SURFACED ADDITIONAL FAILURES WHICH HAVE PROMPTED ODI TO UPGRADE THIS INVESTIGATION TO AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS AND WIDEN THE SCOPE OF THE AFFECTED POPULATION TO INCLUDE 2004-2005 MY. THIS RECALL QUERY HAS BEEN UPGRADED TO AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS (EA06-014) TO FURTHER INVESTIGATE THIS ISSUE TO ASSESS THE SAFETY-RELATED CONSEQUENCES, AND TO DETERMINE THE SCOPE OF THE AFFECTED POPULATION.


Construct a timeline from the above information .
Make sure you understand just how bad these failure times , rates , and consequences really are .
Make sure you understand what could have , and should have been avoided .

Feel proud now about toyota , and your post ?

"NO PROBLEM " ? " TIMELY " ?? " QUICKLY " ??? You feel that way now ? How would you feel if it was one of your people that had been injured ?

Boy , one things for sure , makes you want to run right over and grab a new Tundra doesn't it . Or would you feel better if you had one of the effected vehicles ?

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mustang - couger ,

You were called on a specific post .

Perhaps its not clear to you that my post was about your positive characterization of toyota and their handling of this important manufacturing defect present on a large number of toyotas built since 2001 .

I posted these as both a source of information to one and all , to you in particular , and as a solid refutation of your post's conclusions .
I then asked you a series of relevant questions .

Your response so far has consisted of ;

Avoiding the topic at hand - your positive comments concerning the recall announced Friday .

Avoiding any relevant disccusion of the actual defect investigation notices as a whole .

Avoiding any mention of the specific information they contain that clearly and directly contradicts your claims concerning toyota's handling of this defect and the recall .

Avoiding the questions you were asked in regards to your post and the ODI investigations you , I hope , were unaware of .

Instead , you have gone off topic in all sorts of directions , the main thrust of which is to " bash " anybody or anything but toyota and talk about things that are mostly irrelevant in regards to your post or my response to it !

Could we please get back on topic ?

To facilitate your efforts I have included your post , and my response to it .

 

[Mustang_Cougar]

You're confused g20,

If you reread my first reply to Brian, the point wasn't to stick up for Toyota. Rather it was to illustrate that:

1) Cars are very technical products;

2) All car manufacturers have the inevitable problem of issuing recalls;

3) I don't begrudge any car maker, foreign or domestic, that issues as timely a recall as possible;

4) There is nothing to be gained by bashing one or the other; and

5) This recall, like all the other recent Toyota recalls, will have absolutely no impact on their reputation and sales.

In my subsequent posts, I thought I'd better see where the loyalties are with both you and Brian, just so that I can see if the arguments are fair or if their is an agenda here. It's obvious Brian is playing the Detroit Defender, which is fine if he is upfront and honest about it. The fact that he posted a link here to a recall that was out in the press for a few days...and to which I'm sure the car-friendly crowd at BITOG were fully aware...doesn't seem to be the "public service" he's claiming it is. Furthermore, I practically guarantee that the next widespread domestic recall will not be posted by either him or you as part of your "public service" campaign. Why? Having read some of your posts, it wouldn't see to fit your agenda.

Lastly, Ford sold me an Explorer. It had faulty tires. They had evidence from fatal accidents that the combination of the faulty tires (that they spec'd) and the design of the Explorer was dangerous. The argument that this is about under-inflated tires is ridiculous; the percentage of Americans with under-inflated tires cross-sections all cars and trucks. Why was just the Explorer flipping over? Well, Ford didn't want to hone up to this serious problem and the situation went on for years. Now we're not talking about failed ball joints that have had no fatalities associated with them; we're talking about a car manufacturer and a tire manufacturer arguing about who is responsible while hundreds of thousands of families are driving around in these vehicles.
I have no experience with Toyota recalls; I have had a bad experience (like a lot of people) with Ford. The fact you guys are acting like there is some sort of conspiracy to keep Detroit down when it comes to reliability and safety is just ridiculous. They build better cars NOW because of the public perception of foreign brands being better and safer. Why whine about it? You both win because of such a "conspiracy."

BTW: Just for the record, do you own a Toyota? We got Brian out of the way, so I'd like to get your bias down too.

 

[1sttruck]

If posting info about yet another recall or problem on the 'ultra high quality Japanese vehicles' is bashing then count me too. Our Civic was done at 120k miles, while our crummy 93 Ford Taurus made it to 210k miles, being worked much process too. The transmission in the 99 Taurus went out at a bit 100k miles, evidently a transmission recall wasn't put in while under warranty by the dealer, but a friend's Accura transmission only lasted over 30k miles. Other friends that we camped with got rid of their Land Cruiser at 100k miles after mileage went way down and the dealer couldn't fix it, and after regular brake problems. Everyone seems to make turkeys, and when people start running around holding Honda and Toyota emblems as some sort of magic ornament that forever banishes all problems from a vehicle, expect people, myself included, to have some fun when reality hits.

 

[97tbird]

agree 100% with 1st Truck.
No brand is perfect. poeple really need to understand that, and be able to accept even Honda and Toyota have their problems. once a name becomes established, some can never accept fault fault with it. I know of a guy whose transmission in a Tundra had to be replaced twice at less than 80k miles, and still had problems last time I heard of it. My domestic 97 Tbird hasn't had single transmission/engine problem now at 116k...so it's not ALWAYS japanese car better, domestic bad...it goes the other way, too...and as one can see perhaps a bit too often to the comfort of blind followers.

 

[Kernel Potter]

Although this link has been posted before, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13972069/ - perhaps the reason Toyota has so many recalls these days isn't because they never had a lot in the past but because they cover them up better than the other automakers.

It seems to make sense to me because most people I know and ask about their toyota, have spent plenty of money on repairs and maintenance.

 

[buster]

I had to unfortunately rent a Monte Carlo while down here in Miami and let me tell you, it is no wonder GM is struggling. Car had decent power which is typical of many GM engines but other than that this car is absolutely horrible. Design is bad, handling is bad, looks are bad....the whole car is just ridiculous. The car's steering wheel looks like it was taken from a Greyhound bus. It's that big.

 

[ScottB]

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I had to unfortunately rent a Monte Carlo while down here in Miami and let me tell you, it is no wonder GM is struggling. Car had decent power which is typical of many GM engines but other than that this car is absolutely horrible. Design is bad, handling is bad, looks are bad....the whole car is just ridiculous. The car's steering wheel looks like it was taken from a Greyhound bus. It's that big.

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= No sales.

 

[Drew99GT]

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- perhaps the reason Toyota has so many recalls these days

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Yet another flat out lie propagated by Toyota bashers. Look for yourself on the NHTSA website and compare Toyota recalls in number and severity to it's domestic counterparts.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I simply enjoy watching the spectacle and the exaggerations. There is a concerted effort occurring to denigrate the automaker by it's competitors and their supporters.

 

[g20ooh]

Your position :

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I simply enjoy watching the spectacle and the exaggerations. There is a concerted effort occurring to denigrate the automaker by it's competitors and their supporters.

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toyota's position :

" Mr Kwong has explained the problem with the recalled models is due to excessive wear to a lower ball joint in the front suspension. The excessive wear makes the vehicles hard to steer, meaning drivers will find it difficult to control the vehicle . "

Reality :

(From NHTSA/ODI . Date of complaint : 28 FEB 2006

Complaints Summary

Make: TOYOTA
Model: TUNDRA

Year: 2004
Complaint Number: 10151613
Summary:
" WE HAVE A TOYOTA TUNDRA A 2004, MY HUSBAND SAID IT WAS STEERING LIKE SOMETHING WAS CATCHING HE TOOK IT TO A REPAIR SHOP THEY COULD NOT FIND ANYTHING WRONG, SO WE PICKED IT UP THAT SAME DAY, TOOK IT ON A TRIP, ON OUR WAY BACK GOING 70 MPH ON THE HIGHWAY IT FELT LIKE THE WHOLE FRONT DRIVERS SIDE OF OUR TRUCK FELL OFF, IT WAS A TERRIBLE TERRIFYING JOLT MY HUSBAND KNEW THAT WE HAD LOST THE TIRE AND RIM SPARKS WERE FLYING EVERYWHERE AS WE WERE SLIDING DOWN THE HIGHWAY ON THE AXEL, LUCKILY WE WERE ON A STRAIGHT AWAY WITH NO TRAFFIC BUT ONE VEHICLE BEHIND US. THE FRICTION SLOWED THE TRUCK DOWN, WE PULLED IT OFF THE HIGHWAY, WE WERE SURPRISED TO SEE THAT THE BALL JOINT HAD COLLAPSED AND THE TIRE AND WHEEL WERE FOLDED UNDER THE TRUCK SO THAT THE TRUCK WAS ACTUALLY SLIDING DOWN THE HIGHWAY ON THIS TIRE AND WHEEL, THE SHERIFF SAID HE HAD NEVER SEEN ANYTHING QUITE LIKE IT. WE CALLED THE TOYOTA DEALER TO SEE IF THERE HAD BEEN A RECALL THAT WE HAD MISSED THEY SAID NO RECALL ON THAT VIN NUMBER. AFTER CHECKING ON THE INTERNET WE FOUND THAT THEY DO HAVE THIS PROBLEM ON THE 2004 TUNDRA'S BUT OURS WAS NOT PART OF THE RECALL. TOYOTA IS SAYING THAT IT IS NOT THERE FAULT OR PROBLEM. OUR TRUCK IS ONLY 2 YEARS OLD, WITH 52,000 MILES. BEFORE THE BALL JOINT COLLAPSED WE WERE COMING DOWN A MOUNTAIN PASS WITH A LOT OF CURVES IF IT HAD OF HAPPENED THEN OUR OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE. WE WERE LUCKY TO COME AWAY WITH ONLY SORE MUSCLES. THE COST OF REPAIRS IS GOING TO BE OVER $6,000 DOLLARS. I DON'T EVEN WANT TO GET BACK IN THAT TRUCK, I DON'T FEEL SAFE TO RIDE IN IT. HOW CAN YOU SELL SOMETHING THAT YOU KNOW IS NOT SAFE. I AM VERY UPSET THAT TOYOTA TAKES THE STAND THAT IT IS NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. WE HAD FAITH IN THE TOYOTA BRAND. NOT ANYMORE. TOYOTA'S BOTTOM LINE IS MONEY. THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT SAFETY. WHO WANTS TO BUY OUR DEFECTIVE TRUCK, ANY TAKERS? WHO WANTS TO PUT THEIR FAMILY AT RISK? IF YOU DO, BUY A TOYOTA. " *NM





From : http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/83671-ball-joint-failures-very-serious-matter/Date : 4 JAN 2007
( There are at least 17 good threads there on this specific issue - covering 2000 - 2007 . )


" I've owned these toyota 4x4's going back to 1982. Today my 2005 Tundra experienced a suspension failure resulting in a crash. The lower ball joint sheared and the wheel involved flipped sideways in the wheel well and there was a complete loss of control and steering. Km was approximatley 120,000km which is same as the average for the reported suspension failures in the web link below. "

NHTSA Probes 600,000 Toyota Trucks and Vans

" It would appear that 2005 Tundra 4x4's are also at risk. What do you think your reaction would be to a suspension failure while perhaps your wife was driving with the kids and there was a fatality from something as avoidable in design as this. ACT NOW, dont wait until you are facing a Transport Truck head on . "


Bryanccfshr ,

I think its really about personal safety and unethical behaivor motivated by fierce greed and covered by comedic levels of spin , but hey , to each his own .

I wonder ......... , think there might be a young Mom somewhere with a husband overseas , driving a 2002 tundra with kids , without the LATCH SEAT feature that toyota illegally forgot to provide , on her third set of warped brakes , with about to go balljoints in the snow and ice ?

How much did they make between 2002 - 2007 ?
Do you think this snipett is correct?
" But they were designed wrong. Toyota has admitted this and they changed the design on the 07 from being at the bottom of the pulling force to being pushed toward the lower-arm knuckle. "
Also , could you explain to me why every single forum thats useful for toyota owners is busy dealing with recalls , sludge settlements , and every possible vehicle defect imaginable except here ? And while you're at it , could you tell me why why the spin drs are so much nicer and believable everywhere else ? Do we only rate the "C" TEAM ?

Gotta love that toyota modesty ....about that wheel tuck and steering effort thing . Whew !!!
You are aware that they timed this so they wouldn't have any on the dealership lots to do before sold right ?

 

[Kernel Potter]

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- perhaps the reason Toyota has so many recalls these days

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Yet another flat out lie propagated by Toyota bashers. Look for yourself on the NHTSA website and compare Toyota recalls in number and severity to it's domestic counterparts.

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You don't get the logic here, do you? The article I linked shows Toyota being warned by the Japanese government for COVERING up recalls. How do you compare an NHTSA list when Toyota is called out for covering up recalls?

And wasn't it in 2006 that Toyota led all other automakers in recalls? I know they were in the "lead" well into the year but don't know how it finished. Maybe they're heeding their warnings from the Japanese government. I'm guessing Japan doesn't want another Mitsubishi fiasco on their hands.

Looks like you're ignoring the truth so you can defend Toyota and bash American automakers. That's no surprise around here.

 

[g20ooh]

Although this link has been posted before, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13972069/ - perhaps the reason Toyota has so many recalls these days isn't because they never had a lot in the past but because they cover them up better than the other automakers. YEP . In the JDM , thru the 80s at least ,industry people use to joke that there were two sets of rules ; toyotas , and everybody elses .






You don't get the logic here, do you? The article I linked shows Toyota being warned by the Japanese government for COVERING up recalls. How do you compare an NHTSA list when Toyota is called out for covering up recalls?

And wasn't it in 2006 that Toyota led all other automakers in recalls? I know they were in the "lead" well into the year but don't know how it finished. Maybe they're heeding their warnings from the Japanese government. I'm guessing Japan doesn't want another Mitsubishi fiasco on their hands.

Looks like you're ignoring the truth so you can defend Toyota and bash American automakers. That's no surprise around here.

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You got that right , and I do mean all of it .Although KP , half of what they post isn't worth answering - I just ignore it .

On that Mitsubishi/toyota similarity thing , toyota is well on their way . Where it doesn't match up are differences that indicate a larger problem with a more sophisicated cover up . Personally , I think the Agencies involved in Japan decided ( for good reason )to tackle Mitsu first ( size ) , then Toyota second . There is a lot more to say about that , it is really more complicated than many realize .

 

[g20ooh]

I remember that one well---someone on some forum (I don't think it was this one) floated a crackpot theory that the balljoints were made in the USA and sabatoged on the assembly line.

Theory was shot to #@$%! when it was revealed that the balljoints were made in Japan.

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Happens all the time with toyota and their affiliates .
My favorite is Nippondenso/NGK VS BOSCH on sparkplugs .
If you can't beat'em smear'em !

 

[g20ooh]

All makes have recalls.
It's how they handle them that counts.

Yep . Which is exactly what toyota corp says , and it is how they handled/are handling this one that makes them look so bad .
Personal opinion , the spin drs here and a few places elsewhere make it even worse .

 

[g20ooh]

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I am sure some will try to use this as bad publicity, but I simply see it as Toyota responding appropriately when issues are brought to their attention. Everyone involved in the recall will get new lower Ball joints and an alignment, something everyone can use from time to time.

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Yep . And for those who go dragging down the highway with a wheel assembly or two tucked under or rolling beside them , the new rims , tires, oil pans , front fenders , and everything else are pretty sweet too.

 

[Drew99GT]

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You don't get the logic here, do you?

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It's perfectly clear. A propagated effort to denigrate Toyota, based a lot on lies and delusion.

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And wasn't it in 2006 that Toyota led all other automakers in recalls?

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Try again

I love how g20 just drops out 3 posts in a row rehashing the same spew. Indeed I get the logic here. A Japanese automaker is poised to become #1, crushing Ford and GM, and some people are scared as #@$%!.

 

[Drew99GT]

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the spin drs here and a few places elsewhere make it even worse .

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Look in the mirror

I'm not spinning anything, just stating facts. Yes, you stated a clear fact that Toyota is recalling 500,000 vehicles, but you're taking off with it like a basketball at a Harlem Globe Trotters game. And mixing in some non facts here and there like any good spin doctor does. Surprised you're not a regular on Oreilly's show.

 

[g20ooh]

BTW: Does anyone think these Toyota recalls will have any impact upon their sales in the battle with GM for #1? (Rhetorical...)

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Sigh .........the 36,000, 000 $ +++ ( US ALONE ) that this is going to cost is not what the the stockholders want to hear right now , esp with the additional 200,000,000-250,000,000 $ Sludge Settlement bill thats looming .
See , the point is to maximise stockholder utility by selling cars , not reduce it by paying on Settlements , Recalls ,etc

Number of cars sold is emotional - its really kids stuff .

From a marketing point of view , if you believe this passing GM thing is going to happen this year would you rather arrive with or without the sludge settlement , and a strong start on being number one in recalls that probably will hold , etc ?