Toyota Oil Sludge Prevention

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G-Man II, you might be right ... depending on the cooling capacity of the system when the thermostat is in wide-open position.
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--- Bror Jace
 
How far can Toyota factory oil go without shearing? I just received my service coupons in the mail the other day (2004 Sienna) and the dealer is recommending oil changes at 5k miles. However when we first purchased the car, we were told to bring it in at 3k miles. I even have the reminder sticker for my first free oil change at 3k miles. My question is which one should I follow? 3k oil changes or 5k with factory oil? Can factory oil go that far? Thanks.
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Originally posted by kiko:
How far can Toyota factory oil go without shearing? I just received my service coupons in the mail the other day (2004 Sienna) and the dealer is recommending oil changes at 5k miles. However when we first purchased the car, we were told to bring it in at 3k miles. I even have the reminder sticker for my first free oil change at 3k miles. My question is which one should I follow? 3k oil changes or 5k with factory oil? Can factory oil go that far? Thanks.
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Go with 3000 for the "severe service" or about 4500 miles regular service. I would change oil at no more than 4 months regardless of miles. I tend to lean towards the 3 month 3000 with the dino oil regardless what the manual says. If you switch to synthetics you can stretch it to 6000 miles or more.
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Originally posted by RussellA:
I own a 99 Avalon and received a letter last year about the new policy. I had been using Mobil 1 10w-30 ... I have currently switched to Amsoil Series 2000 0w-30

I wouldn't use the Amsoil. It's not API certified, and therefore the dealer might use it as an excuse not to fix problem: "You didn't follow the manual. You have to use API oil."

I'd stick to the Mobil 1 synthetic, 10W-30 (since you live in warm Georgia), and change every 3000 miles. Always keep fresh oil in the engine. Switching to a thicker synthetic like 10W-40 might help too since it has a higher flame point and can withstand the heat.

re: Additives. I think they are a bad idea. I wouldn't use them.


(Aside: I wonder if a diesel oil would be good? Since it's designed to hold soot in suspension, it might hold any sludge in suspension too.)
 
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Originally posted by Shannow:
His best mate (same company) had a Camry v-6 that in spite of maintenance at the dealer in accordance with the manual, and using the dealer supplied oil died of bearing failure. Strip down showed sludge everywhere, and restricted oil flow to the bearings. Toyota charged him $6,500 for a remanufactured engine.

UNBELIEVABLE. What's the point of having an engine warranty if the Dealer/Manufacturer refuses to honor it? That's complete ********. Sometimes I wish I was a lawyer, so I could screw companies that don't honor their warranties.


Also, there are some people who refuse to believe Toyota engines have problems. Can you believe that? Despite all the evidence, they say it's the customer's fault, not Toyota's.

And finally, Dodge Durangos are ALSO having engine sludging problems. Dodge, like Toyota, is refusing to fix the problem and lots of customers are left with massive paperweights.
 
I know the sludging problem in Toyota's and Durango's has probably been beat to death, or almost so, but I'd like to throw one more theory into the pile for discussion that heretofore has not been discussed.

While on a short vacation I read a SAE paper on modeling oil and coolant temperatures in an engine using some special software developed just for that, and will incorporate some of the same thinking into the oil viscosity study.

From the paper,

quote:

Therefore, to study the effect of a reduced [water] jacket depth, a depth equal to a 60% stroke was modeled. This resulted in a 15 C increase in sump temperature, while the piston undercrown and ring temperatures increased by 33 C and 43 C repsectively. The predicted temperature of the oil leaving the undercrown of the piston also increased by 32 C, and the average bore wall temperature increased by 57 C. The direction of these temperature changes is consistent with expectations, as the shorter water jacket should lead to increased bore temperatures.....Also, if the [heat] energy is not leaving the the piston through the rings to the bore, then it must leave through the undercrown and end up in the oil.

In other words a shorter water jacket, a jacket that is shorter than the total travel of the piston, is going to result in much hotter oil, and therefore, greater oxidation, leading to onset of sludging much sooner than if the water jacket were full length.

It would be interesting to know if the water jacket(s) in the so-called "sludge-monsters" has been shortened with respect to other models that have not had sludging problems.

[ June 09, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
My car is a 99 Camry CE, 5S-FE engine, no variable-valve timing, 109K miles (75% highway miles).

Someone mentioned i4 engines being affected, but is the 5S-FE engine prone to oil sludge?

The engine light has stayed on for over a week now. I've re-tightened the gas cap about 10 trips ago, and the engine light is still on. I changed oil every 7,500 miles, and started changing every 5,000 about three changes ago. 5W-30 oil was used about half the time (in the early years), but lately it's been 10W-30. My last oil change was about 4,000 miles ago with 10W-30, and I added about 1/2 quart 5W-30 about 1,000 miles ago--the oil cap looked clean then. (I've always noticed a very thin, clear gel-like layer of oil residue around the thread of the cap; I don't know what to make of it.) The car drives very smoothly; I sense no loss of power.

Could the engine just suddenly seize due to oil sludge while showing no performance symptoms beforehand?

Thanks.

[ June 09, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: frankioski ]
 
Toyotas seem to run hotter than Hondas, based on personal experience with a 2S-FE '87 Camry, V6 '88 Camry, and 8 Accords from '79-00. The '87 basically cooked everything under the hood by 100K mi., and the valve cover wasn't as clean as the Hondas.
 
quote:

Originally posted by frankioski:
My car is a 99 Camry CE, 5S-FE engine, no variable-valve timing, 109K miles (75% highway miles).

Someone mentioned i4 engines being affected, but is the 5S-FE engine prone to oil sludge?

The engine light has stayed on for over a week now. I've re-tightened the gas cap about 10 trips ago, and the engine light is still on. I changed oil every 7,500 miles, and started changing every 5,000 about three changes ago. 5W-30 oil was used about half the time (in the early years), but lately it's been 10W-30. My last oil change was about 4,000 miles ago with 10W-30, and I added about 1/2 quart 5W-30 about 1,000 miles ago--the oil cap looked clean then. (I've always noticed a very thin, clear gel-like layer of oil residue around the thread of the cap; I don't know what to make of it.) The car drives very smoothly; I sense no loss of power.

Could the engine just suddenly seize due to oil sludge while showing no performance symptoms beforehand?

Thanks.


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I wouldn't worry if the vehicle is running fine. Just keep changing the oil at 4000 if you are using conventional oil. I would prefer 3000 but 4000 is OK since you drive 75% highway. You may want to consider synthetics if you prefer longer drain intervals which it looks like you do. You could easily go 6000 or more on synthetics. Since your oil consumption is decent I would lean with M1 10-30 at your next change.
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Well I must have been lucky to own mostly 22RE's. I have prepped them for desert,street and 4 wheeling and have never had a sludge problem. I even built on that I ran up to 9,500 RPMS on a regular basis and 10,000 was redline! I hear that most of this has been isolated to 1999-2001 or 2002 2.2I4 and 3.0V6. While I reliase that it is not a good situation it is not as bad as Dodge's 45 years of head, bellypan and intake manifold gasket leaks, Chevys has been plaged with intake manifold leaks, rear main seal leaks, oil pan leaks and oil pump problems, bad blocks from mexico, Ford has had massive electrical problems since the 1980's and oil consumption and their powersteering pumps always leak or consume fluid , all things considered I would say that this is very small. Every car company makes mistakes and puts out lemons but some companys have done it alot more then others!!!
 
Mine is 2000 camry 2.2L with 62,000 sludge-free kms. It is JDM version (japan domestic model). Used mainly 15w-50 & 10w-50 most of its life. Sludge problem is nearly unheard of in Asian camrys. One thing I noticed different is that camrys in this part of the world dont have EGR. Yes we have cat converters and charcoal canisters, but no EGR. My camry breaths clean air all the time.
 
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Someone mentioned i4 engines being affected, but is the 5S-FE engine prone to oil sludge?

From Toyota, the cars covered by their new replacement policy for oil gelling ( sludge)

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1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines

I think this includes your car.

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The engine light has stayed on for over a week now. I've re-tightened the gas cap about 10 trips ago, and the engine light is still on.

This can be about 160 different codes. Need to read the code with an OBD II code reader. Many autoparts places will do this for free. My 99 Avalon did this and it was the bank 1 sensor 1 O2 sensor heater circuit. Had to replace O2 sensor.

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I added about 1/2 quart 5W-30 about 1,000 miles ago--the oil cap looked clean then.

I know on the V6 there is a plastic baffle in the valve cover under the oil fill opening, so I'm not so sure sludge would develop there even if you had a problem.

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Could the engine just suddenly seize due to oil sludge while showing no performance symptoms beforehand?


It seems from Toyota oil sludge forums the typical first symptom is blue smoke on start up. Unfortunately often at this point it at least requires tearing the engine down to clean (expensive).

Personally I would switch to synthetics. Given your history of 7.5k and 5K on dyno I might run a couple of auto-rx treatments or something similiar to clean out the engine(search this forum for more info on this). And I would replace the PCV valve immediately (should be an easy do-it-yourself).
 
quote:

Originally posted by troy_heagy:

I'd stick to the Mobil 1 synthetic, 10W-30 (since you live in warm Georgia), and change every 3000 miles. Always keep fresh oil in the engine. Switching to a thicker synthetic like 10W-40 might help too since it has a higher flame point and can withstand the heat.

re: Additives. I think they are a bad idea. I wouldn't use them.


(Aside: I wonder if a diesel oil would be good? Since it's designed to hold soot in suspension, it might hold any sludge in suspension too.)


I've tried using 10w40 in my '01 V6 Camry. I wanted better wear protection. But...it felt sluggish and after 2k the car was a little harder to start. Very small difference but noticeable.

It was also the second oil I've used that caused the engine to make a ticking sound. With the Chevron 10w40 it started at 2 or 2.5K(valvoline synpower was the first at 4.5K). The tick was silenced with a dose of schaeffer neutra (4 oz.) for 250 miles. The oil and neutra mix also made the engine feel like it had 10w30 in it. I now have M1 10w30 and at 1K with no tick. I give an update in a couple of months.

Lastly, and most important, Terry Dyson recommends 5w30 or 10w30 in these Toyota V6's for proper lubrication and cooling. My good 5w30 and 10w30 analysis numbers back that up.

I don't know if it's the non PAO/Ester oils causing ticking (read deposits) or not. I may try Schaeffer 10w30 to see how that performs. My experience with Schaeffer shows excellent wear numbers.

BTW, the new Sienna has a 5.8 quart sump capacity. HMMM...I wonder why? Me thinks it may help with the heat/sludge issue.

My humble opinion?...Use a non-group III synthetic. Schaeffer blend has at least 16% PAO and looks like it will also work well. It also has a very high flashpoint. A good engine cleaning may also be important. I plan on changing 5-6K and cleaning every 2-3 oil changes. I have not tried the maintenance dose of Auto-Rx or LC. These may also do the trick. My experience with Auto-Rx proves it works for cleaning. I haven't tried LC.

I wouldn't use a "cheap" oil for more than 3-4K and I would use a cleaner to get the deposits out EVERY oil change. But that's just me..Joe paranoid.
 
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It would be interesting to know if the water jacket(s) in the so-called "sludge-monsters" has been shortened with respect to other models that have not had sludging problems.

I've been trying to figure that out. Does someone have a friend at a Toyota Dealer Parts Department that could look on their parts schematics at the heads, head gaskets, valve cover, maybe block and see what changed from 96 to 97 to cause this problem, and see what may have changed from 2002 to the mid 2002 and after (v6) to fix the problem??

Unfortunately when I even try to ask anything about engine design that maybe causing oil sludge at my local toyota parts department, they get pissed(i.e. mad not drunk for you members in the UK) and say with an angry tone "People not changing their oil is what is causing the sludging! If you're changing your oil like you're supposed to you won't have a problem!" .
 
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Originally posted by frankioski:
RusselA:
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And I would replace the PCV valve immediately (should be an easy do-it-yourself).

How do I locate the PCV valve?
Thanks.


Facing the front of the car on the V6 on the left top of the engine near the rear, almost sits on top of the rear valve cover and it has a hose with clip attached to it. Should be very noticeable.

Oops, you have the 4 cyl. Not sure where that is. Should be fairly easy to locate though.

[ June 11, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]
 
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RusselA:

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And I would replace the PCV valve immediately (should be an easy do-it-yourself).
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How do I locate the PCV valve?

Thanks.

This link to a pdf has a few diagrams of Toyota PCV. They look like 4 cylinders. Hopefully it will point you in the right direction. Might help to look at a few autoparts sites and find what your PCV looks likes so you know what you are looking for. Mine is a v6 so it is different than yours.

www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf
 
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I wouldn't use a "cheap" oil for more than 3-4K and I would use a cleaner to get the deposits out EVERY oil change. But that's just me..Joe paranoid.

Doing this right now. That must mean I'm paranoid too. It's better to be safe than sorry is what I say. I have the '04 Sienna and to keep up with the warranty I let the dealer change the oil every 3k miles but then I add a maintenance dose of auto-rx into the engine right after leaving the service area. Will probably go to the extent of changing out the dealer oil after 500 miles and replacing it with my preferred brand of oil just to help me sleep better at night. Might even have to use Mobil 1 but I'd hate to dump it every 3k miles. Any recommendations?
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I wouldn't waste my time and money going to a dealer for oil changes--unless you live in a condo or apartment.

I've been videoing my oil changes and saving receipts. Get a shot of your back yard or child, proving the time...and use a dedicated tape. And you are probably better off with Toyota oil filters--available for $4 or less on the 'net, if your parts department won't gice a case "deal."

Don't get paranoid of sludge, esp. with the new Sienna and larger sump! Also, it may not be a bad idea to run the recommended fuel octane. In previous Siennas, that has been 91 or higher. If, indeed, head temperatures are a problem, the higher octane will help, slightly.
 
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