That sounds like a hidden defect, and it should all be covered under the original warranty.
TOYOTA-BLOWN HEAD GASKET
- Thread starter mag176
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That sounds like a hidden defect, and it should all be covered under the original warranty.
If you go with helicoils, key-inserts, or such, make sure they are sealed well. Coolant/oil under heat and pressure will seep past them otherwise.
It's not normal for head bolts to strip with normal servicing.
It's not normal for head bolts to strip with normal servicing.
mag176,
I'll be happy to look around for you - here is one I had under the wrong folder here at home .
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/camry/81522-2002-head-bolt-loose/
Here are the first two posts in the thread .
Our 2002 Camry (4 cylinder) has just been diagnosed with a loose/ stripped head bolt and needs a new Short Block. Est. repair cost $6000. From talking to my contact at the Toyota dealership, he has seen this on a few 2002 Camry's with over 80k miles. I thought I'd search to see if other people have had this happen
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ouch ouch. sorry to hear of that. may want to scour the toyota forums on the condition though. might get lucky if there is a tsb or recal.
i am no expert mechanic but on many toyota and honda/acuras i have worked on, i have found that it is not uncommon to come across stripped, broken, or usually cross threaded bolts from the factory. when i performed an engine swap on my supra, i encountered several crossthreaded bolts, in the body, and transmission; one of the bell housing bolt actualy stretched and broke upon removal.
point is im not surprised that your stud is all jacked up and the dealer has the nerve to charge you for a factory assembly defect. you are better off doing an engine swap with another used motor. used camery motor $1000+ labor $1000 to $2000. = $2000 to $3000. im just guestimating, but thats cheaper than $6k.
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I'll be happy to look around for you - here is one I had under the wrong folder here at home .
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/camry/81522-2002-head-bolt-loose/
Here are the first two posts in the thread .
Our 2002 Camry (4 cylinder) has just been diagnosed with a loose/ stripped head bolt and needs a new Short Block. Est. repair cost $6000. From talking to my contact at the Toyota dealership, he has seen this on a few 2002 Camry's with over 80k miles. I thought I'd search to see if other people have had this happen
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ouch ouch. sorry to hear of that. may want to scour the toyota forums on the condition though. might get lucky if there is a tsb or recal.
i am no expert mechanic but on many toyota and honda/acuras i have worked on, i have found that it is not uncommon to come across stripped, broken, or usually cross threaded bolts from the factory. when i performed an engine swap on my supra, i encountered several crossthreaded bolts, in the body, and transmission; one of the bell housing bolt actualy stretched and broke upon removal.
point is im not surprised that your stud is all jacked up and the dealer has the nerve to charge you for a factory assembly defect. you are better off doing an engine swap with another used motor. used camery motor $1000+ labor $1000 to $2000. = $2000 to $3000. im just guestimating, but thats cheaper than $6k.
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mag176 ,
There are a couple of practical considerations we should cover first .
Real important , what exactly and in some detail is the cooling system maintenance history ? This includes inspecting the coolant levels and coolant quality in both the bottle and the radiator .
According to toyotas owner info link , your first coolant change was not due until 100k/120mo . Did anyone do this earlier ?
When was the last cooling system check/activity/whatever performed ?
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Now , maybe the more important thing here is what kind of transportation alternatives/time constraints do you face ?
If you are having to move forward quickly with the factory/dealer depending on the specifics of that you might have to " solve " this in two to three steps .
In regards to this , and not trying to go all nasty on the other parties what exactly is your ( state/county ) small claims court maximum limit ? ( occupant does have a very good practical point , as do many other posters on your thread , including amazingly enough Lonnie . I say that only because Lonnie and I are usually in total disagreement and here we are not . )
Finally , if this finds you already engaged pretty far down the road whatever you do stay alert, calm, cool, and collected .You want them to help you out of warranty under goodwill . If you have to disagree , disagree politely . Take good notes ( time , date , who ,what , when , were , why , etc ) . If you haven't already done so accurately reconstruct your to date proceedings .
Keep in mind/become familiar with the recent financial performance of the company - they have plenty of money to make things right or even to cover an owner /operator mistake . What you are trying to do is get everybody to yes . Another way to say that is if they want to they can cover the whole thing - so your job in a very real sense is to get them to want to .
When I suggested you get a copy of your vehicles' history as toyota keeps it there were several reasons why . One of them would be to determine your vehicles history before you took delivery . On the same note , do you remember the mileage and date at delivery ? All this may not matter , or it may matter a great deal . (Typically a longshot but sometimes not . That record will also show which dealer where took the original delivery and which one performed the PDI ) .
So far , with a ten minute search completed and all the limitations that implies it " looks " like this has been a low grade but chronic " comes and goes " problem with this 2AZ - FE engine in regards to 2001 - 2005 MYR ENGINE production ( not just relevant camry ) , and it " looks " like at least part of it is assembly related exascerbated by design factors that may have been at least partially addressed in 2006/2007 . ( I still have a nagging memory of a concentrated " run " , but that maybe another engine ).
One thing for sure , this is not your factory persons' first rodeo in regards to this . Your dealer personal , .... well it just depends .
Also FWIW this engine has been identified as worth strongly pursueing in terms of the rebuilder industry based on need - and thats not just based on basic sales volume .
This is centered around your problem ( ( loose head bolts/loss of headgasket seal ) and the need to replace secondary ( or unuseable core ) damage , in particular ,the cylinder head . ( IE , A causes B causes C ). Not sure yet of the exact particulars , but does look like for sure " A " can be a couple of dfferent combinations , all pretty much factory related one way or another . Does seem somewhat date of engine manufacture specific as to which " A "s " happen " .
I have been told ,although I have not confirmed , that AERA now has a bulletin or two that covers aspects of this problem very well .( You will need the right kind of connection/technical school/library for that ) .
By whatever means possible I WOULD try hard to go thru all TSBs on all applications of this engine - not just camry . One really smart way to do that , that has more benefit than you may realize is go to the toyota website and sign up ( CORRECTLY ) for their limited time " TSB ETC " access program . Personally , I'd have a lot of paper , and I would print everything possible on your specific vehicle/engine combination as well as the engine in other applications . Trust me on this , its well worth doing ...... AND OTHER THINGS LIKE IT .
There are a couple of practical considerations we should cover first .
Real important , what exactly and in some detail is the cooling system maintenance history ? This includes inspecting the coolant levels and coolant quality in both the bottle and the radiator .
According to toyotas owner info link , your first coolant change was not due until 100k/120mo . Did anyone do this earlier ?
When was the last cooling system check/activity/whatever performed ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now , maybe the more important thing here is what kind of transportation alternatives/time constraints do you face ?
If you are having to move forward quickly with the factory/dealer depending on the specifics of that you might have to " solve " this in two to three steps .
In regards to this , and not trying to go all nasty on the other parties what exactly is your ( state/county ) small claims court maximum limit ? ( occupant does have a very good practical point , as do many other posters on your thread , including amazingly enough Lonnie . I say that only because Lonnie and I are usually in total disagreement and here we are not . )
Finally , if this finds you already engaged pretty far down the road whatever you do stay alert, calm, cool, and collected .You want them to help you out of warranty under goodwill . If you have to disagree , disagree politely . Take good notes ( time , date , who ,what , when , were , why , etc ) . If you haven't already done so accurately reconstruct your to date proceedings .
Keep in mind/become familiar with the recent financial performance of the company - they have plenty of money to make things right or even to cover an owner /operator mistake . What you are trying to do is get everybody to yes . Another way to say that is if they want to they can cover the whole thing - so your job in a very real sense is to get them to want to .
When I suggested you get a copy of your vehicles' history as toyota keeps it there were several reasons why . One of them would be to determine your vehicles history before you took delivery . On the same note , do you remember the mileage and date at delivery ? All this may not matter , or it may matter a great deal . (Typically a longshot but sometimes not . That record will also show which dealer where took the original delivery and which one performed the PDI ) .
So far , with a ten minute search completed and all the limitations that implies it " looks " like this has been a low grade but chronic " comes and goes " problem with this 2AZ - FE engine in regards to 2001 - 2005 MYR ENGINE production ( not just relevant camry ) , and it " looks " like at least part of it is assembly related exascerbated by design factors that may have been at least partially addressed in 2006/2007 . ( I still have a nagging memory of a concentrated " run " , but that maybe another engine ).
One thing for sure , this is not your factory persons' first rodeo in regards to this . Your dealer personal , .... well it just depends .
Also FWIW this engine has been identified as worth strongly pursueing in terms of the rebuilder industry based on need - and thats not just based on basic sales volume .
This is centered around your problem ( ( loose head bolts/loss of headgasket seal ) and the need to replace secondary ( or unuseable core ) damage , in particular ,the cylinder head . ( IE , A causes B causes C ). Not sure yet of the exact particulars , but does look like for sure " A " can be a couple of dfferent combinations , all pretty much factory related one way or another . Does seem somewhat date of engine manufacture specific as to which " A "s " happen " .
I have been told ,although I have not confirmed , that AERA now has a bulletin or two that covers aspects of this problem very well .( You will need the right kind of connection/technical school/library for that ) .
By whatever means possible I WOULD try hard to go thru all TSBs on all applications of this engine - not just camry . One really smart way to do that , that has more benefit than you may realize is go to the toyota website and sign up ( CORRECTLY ) for their limited time " TSB ETC " access program . Personally , I'd have a lot of paper , and I would print everything possible on your specific vehicle/engine combination as well as the engine in other applications . Trust me on this , its well worth doing ...... AND OTHER THINGS LIKE IT .
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Mark ,
One other thing that you and some of the other posters mentioned is definitely a possible .
I don't know your engine , but I assure you that it , like so many others has some very specific disassembly procedures , which if not followed , can lead to all sorts of problems - including stripping headbolt threads during the remaining disassembly .
The generic discription is that the head bolts and the " clamping force " they provide must be released in a specific proceedure that typically is not intuitive and now a days can also require a surprising amount of precision .
Sometimes there are other hardware / " engine tension force " release proceedures that can effect this as well .
None of us know exactly what happened , and I don't want to assign responsibility here - it wouldn't be fair or accurate , but there is that " possibility " , that independent of all else , disassembly procedures could have created or worsened the bolt thread problems .
Well , this probably ( short of gross defect in technique ) cannot be resolved with complete certainty by anyone now - including toyota and dealership personal .
In practical terms there is one thing I think worth noting as a result .
Keep the factory and the dealership in it together - let them sort it out - unless toyota is willing to come across with the really big save .
This is along the lines of Lonnies post about the logic you could use in small claims court - except using it in the process before court .
One other thing that you and some of the other posters mentioned is definitely a possible .
I don't know your engine , but I assure you that it , like so many others has some very specific disassembly procedures , which if not followed , can lead to all sorts of problems - including stripping headbolt threads during the remaining disassembly .
The generic discription is that the head bolts and the " clamping force " they provide must be released in a specific proceedure that typically is not intuitive and now a days can also require a surprising amount of precision .
Sometimes there are other hardware / " engine tension force " release proceedures that can effect this as well .
None of us know exactly what happened , and I don't want to assign responsibility here - it wouldn't be fair or accurate , but there is that " possibility " , that independent of all else , disassembly procedures could have created or worsened the bolt thread problems .
Well , this probably ( short of gross defect in technique ) cannot be resolved with complete certainty by anyone now - including toyota and dealership personal .
In practical terms there is one thing I think worth noting as a result .
Keep the factory and the dealership in it together - let them sort it out - unless toyota is willing to come across with the really big save .
This is along the lines of Lonnies post about the logic you could use in small claims court - except using it in the process before court .
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Well. Called corporate Toyota and got the same answer. They will pay the labor if I buy the parts. On the surface sounds kind of good if they had not caused the problem in the first place. It is now obvious that they had no intention of fixing my car. I thank g20ooh for helping me see this. The repair manual has 14 steps to remove the head. Toyota tech went to the last steps, pulled the valve cover and instead of the recommended procedure of loosening the bolts a quarter turn at a time, in reverse sequence to tighten, stripped two out and pronounced the engine shot. Didn’t pull the battery cable, drain coolant, take off any manifolds, nothing.
Then too top it off I go around the corner and they have four 2.4 used motors sitting on pallets ready to go in Camry’s with shot motors. These have tags from the local salvage yard. I could go on but it’s getting very old.
Thanks again, Mark
Then too top it off I go around the corner and they have four 2.4 used motors sitting on pallets ready to go in Camry’s with shot motors. These have tags from the local salvage yard. I could go on but it’s getting very old.
Thanks again, Mark
Mark ,
I'm sorry to hear they want to play it that way .....sigh .
Well you need to get your car back on the road and
then try to even it up in small claims court if you want .I think you can be very successful there - down the road .( Lonnie/occupant ET AL logic )
See , toyotas' logic is based on full retail for parts and labor with an engine life of 150k thats prorated .
" Your logic " and what I honestly believe is fair is their true variable cost x 70k/150k and then a 10/15% reduction off of that for too many reasons to list - if they just don't want to step up and be nice . Also be aware they typically pack the labor that they present to you versus what they pay the dealer - both hours and rate - so they really are coming across usually with less than 65% of what they imply to you . You can confirm this all with ALLDATA - my local library has it available - you might want to buy a subscription for convenience and try to recover the cost later . Of course this is a huge double counting against the consumer when its a used engine involved - think about it .
As to where to have it done ......big topic all options have pluses and minuses .......be aware there are a small but creditable group of reports on the web of toyota dealers covering their tracks in every dishonest way possible - when they might be or are definitely to blame . Soooo ...... read everything before you sign .........
Final thought ,if it was me , I'd save everything - including the parts - but then thats me - I don't get mad I get even .
My opinion only ,toyota has gotten away with an awful lot ( like 4-7 engine recalls amongst many other ) but that maybe changing - with the Sludge Settlement here and the criminal investigations going on in Japan . It wouldn't surprise me if in regards to your vehicle/engine they are forced or choose to to do something about it later that may pay you back .
Better yet , come to think of it if you have the option , I'd explore it with a good attorney - the right kind of letter just might/ probably in this case will move them off the dime . At that point , I wouldn't settle for anything less than full coverage plus legal fees on anything less than new - which isn't going to happen . Keep all the other posters ( well , really most ) in mind .
As you may know , I post hard against toyota here simply because I know no other site with more misinformation in regards to toyota .If you go to many of the toyota forums you can get real help - without the misinformation . Toyota monitors them - so be upfront about who you are and what happened - if they see you active it will work in your favor .
Last ditch suggestion W/O lawyer , 1/2 of they purposed to you , ie 1/2 of a 1/2 - pick up the rest latter .
Make sure you fill a complaint at the NHTSA/ODI SITE .
I'm sorry to hear they want to play it that way .....sigh .
Well you need to get your car back on the road and
then try to even it up in small claims court if you want .I think you can be very successful there - down the road .( Lonnie/occupant ET AL logic )
See , toyotas' logic is based on full retail for parts and labor with an engine life of 150k thats prorated .
" Your logic " and what I honestly believe is fair is their true variable cost x 70k/150k and then a 10/15% reduction off of that for too many reasons to list - if they just don't want to step up and be nice . Also be aware they typically pack the labor that they present to you versus what they pay the dealer - both hours and rate - so they really are coming across usually with less than 65% of what they imply to you . You can confirm this all with ALLDATA - my local library has it available - you might want to buy a subscription for convenience and try to recover the cost later . Of course this is a huge double counting against the consumer when its a used engine involved - think about it .
As to where to have it done ......big topic all options have pluses and minuses .......be aware there are a small but creditable group of reports on the web of toyota dealers covering their tracks in every dishonest way possible - when they might be or are definitely to blame . Soooo ...... read everything before you sign .........
Final thought ,if it was me , I'd save everything - including the parts - but then thats me - I don't get mad I get even .
My opinion only ,toyota has gotten away with an awful lot ( like 4-7 engine recalls amongst many other ) but that maybe changing - with the Sludge Settlement here and the criminal investigations going on in Japan . It wouldn't surprise me if in regards to your vehicle/engine they are forced or choose to to do something about it later that may pay you back .
Better yet , come to think of it if you have the option , I'd explore it with a good attorney - the right kind of letter just might/ probably in this case will move them off the dime . At that point , I wouldn't settle for anything less than full coverage plus legal fees on anything less than new - which isn't going to happen . Keep all the other posters ( well , really most ) in mind .
As you may know , I post hard against toyota here simply because I know no other site with more misinformation in regards to toyota .If you go to many of the toyota forums you can get real help - without the misinformation . Toyota monitors them - so be upfront about who you are and what happened - if they see you active it will work in your favor .
Last ditch suggestion W/O lawyer , 1/2 of they purposed to you , ie 1/2 of a 1/2 - pick up the rest latter .
Make sure you fill a complaint at the NHTSA/ODI SITE .
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