Toxic dangerous new refrigerant Dupont EPA EU

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sdowney717

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This will explode and create hydrogen fluoride acid which will kill you and can dissolve glass.

GM likes it will use it.
Mercedes and VW say NO WAY.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/12...t-dead-already/

Quote:
The substance caught fire as soon as it hit the hot surface, releasing a toxic, corrosive gas as it burned. The car’s windshield turned milky white as lethal hydrogen fluoride began eating its way into the glass.

“We were frozen in shock, I am not going to deny it. We needed a day to comprehend what we had just seen,” said Stefan Geyer, a senior Daimler engineer who ran the tests.”

GM says they love the stuff, Mercedes, VW say no way.
Ford does not want to use it.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/03...me/#more-480508

This is going just in the craziest direction. EPA promoting a toxic explosive EXPENSIVE (10 times the cost of HC 134a) flouride gas

Just use propane butane mix instead for cooling. Problem with this is almost free, no patents, not a money maker.
 
Ick.

Of course to be fair, ALL the CFC/HFC and other flourocarbon family of gasses will do nasty things if you get them hot enough. If there's a leak of good old R-12 and it gets sucked into the air intake of a running engine, especially a diesel, a certain amount of very toxic phosgene will come out the tailpipe. Same for Halon that was used as a fire suppressant before it was phased out.

But the fact that this one does it at temps seen on the surface of the exhaust manifold is a bit worrisome.

I disagree about a pure propane/butane mix. WAY too flammable, and since its much heavier than air a leak in the evaporator side could pool in the ducting until someone starts the car and the fan motor commutator ignites it.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trav
No problem it killed half the neighbourhood when it caught fire its environmentally friendly. LOL


That just means there are less people left to sue, win-win!!
 
I'm wondering how much longer we'll allow DuPont dictate how we use refrigerants. They've really upended the refrigerant industry starting in the 90s, and continue to do so, with the EPA in their pocket.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I'm wondering how much longer we'll allow DuPont dictate how we use refrigerants. They've really upended the refrigerant industry starting in the 90s, and continue to do so, with the EPA in their pocket.
We'lll reach the point where the stuff they use to replace the stuff is worse than R 12.
 
The attitude towards mobile AC and HC refrigerants was always the burning issue.
Now they are saying use this new flammable very very EXPENSIVE burning refrigerant.

If they mandate using this toxic new one, then why not use a propane-butane mix which is safer and extremely cheap. Except there is little profit to be made in HC refridgerants which are natural and safe on the environment, not ozone depleting or any AGW potential.

The logic here is entirely based on money and arrogance.

So what will you do about it, just roll over and say yes, me too, I will use it?
 
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Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Trav
No problem it killed half the neighbourhood when it caught fire its environmentally friendly. LOL


That just means there are less people left to sue, win-win!!

Wait till they start retro fitting, half the trailer parks in the US will be gone.
There goes Walmarts customer base.
lol.gif
Yep win-win!!
 
Originally Posted By: sdowney717

Just use propane butane mix instead for cooling. Problem with this is almost free, no patents, not a money maker.


We used this in our fleet years and years ago. It works very well, and the side effect was unlimited AC compressor life as its lubricity was outstanding.

Not to mention cheap!
 
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
The EPA knows best don't they?


nope


LOL We're on the same page.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Just use propane butane mix instead for cooling. Problem with this is almost free, no patents, not a money maker.


Yup that is a problem for DuPont. They are pretty much the monopoly for refrigeration substances and they can, and do influence policies regarding the use of said substances all under the false umbrella of being green or protecting the planet.

When corporations are given this much power that's the stuff that will happen, all in the best interests, of course.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: sdowney717

Just use propane butane mix instead for cooling. Problem with this is almost free, no patents, not a money maker.


We used this in our fleet years and years ago. It works very well, and the side effect was unlimited AC compressor life as its lubricity was outstanding.

Not to mention cheap!



Considering the side effects of the new product this old mixture seems to be the safest and most efficient way to go.

You can see the "perversion" in the business world when they are touting a product that is lethal not only to the immediate persons that might surround this product they are pushing, but could also be deadly to anyone that would be near the released cloud of gas from it.

Just another day in the criminal business world.
 
I don't like this change to this HFO1234y, I didn;t really like HFC-134. But GM is not the only one that said it will use it. It costs them $75/car but they are being enticed into it with incentives. GM and others tried and tested it and didn't find what Mercedes experienced. The Euros want to use CO2 which to me seems like a poor choice.

A better source for information:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130103/carnews/130109965

Quote:
“We did crash tests, computer simulations and thermal analysis and did not observe any safety problems at all,” Vincent told Automotive News in a phone interview. “Many [researchers] have tried to repeat Daimler’s findings, but no one has come forward with anything that would indicate any concern.”

Vincent made his remarks even as Daimler and Volkswagen AG postponed their use of the refrigerant.

Daimler is recalling Mercedes-Benz vehicles that contain the product, while a Volkswagen spokeswoman says the company won’t use it “until further notice,” Bloomberg News reports.

GM’s Vincent and Honeywell Vice President Terrence Hahn both noted that a research consortium of 13 automakers has reaffirmed its earlier findings that HFO-1234yf poses no safety hazards.


Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130103/carnews/130109965#ixzz2O6qabmIf
Follow us: @AutoweekUSA on Twitter | AutoweekUSA on Facebook


I still don't like it, but apparently 13 other automakers have tested it.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't like this change to this HFO1234y, I didn;t really like HFC-134. But GM is not the only one that said it will use it. It costs them $75/car but they are being enticed into it with incentives. GM and others tried and tested it and didn't find what Mercedes experienced. The Euros want to use CO2 which to me seems like a poor choice.

A better source for information:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130103/carnews/130109965


From that article:


"The EPA doesn’t mandate use of HFO-1234yf, but automakers that make the switch will get extra credits from the agency for reducing emissions that contribute to global warming."

Oh, we won't MAKE you use it .

The whole problem with earlier refrigerants is that they don't break down easily and persist in the environment until they get high up in the atmosphere and then either break down there (R-12, causing ozone depletion) or just sit there as greenhouse gasses (R-134a, hydrocarbon blends, etc.) Any replacement gas that does break down more easily is also more likely to be reactive, combustible, or otherwise... well... NOT inert! You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
It's not as efficient as the traditional refrigerants. And the pressures needed to operate with CO2 are incredibly high.
 
It's criminal that dupont were the lobby agent that got HC refrigerants all but banned on safety grounds, then get to sell ever more expensive and more dangerous chemicals forever after.

The automakers should be getting huge greenhouse credits for going back to HC, as they are thousands of times less active than these new and improved horrors.

A credible media would bring out duponts original arguments against HCs and rub them in our faces.
 
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