Towing and trans life

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
The 6 Speed is worlds apart from the old 4 speeds.

Mopar ATF4+ is already synthetic to boot but I'd throw a cooler on it anyway.



Sorry to say, new or not, I don't know I'd trust it from Chrysler. Look at their quality and dependability rankings. Especially for the Minivans. The trans may be good but would you want to be the guinea pig?

Same with Honda - I'd never tow with an Odyssey. Same trans issues on them.

You don't hear too much about the Toyotas eating transmissions or even the Hyundai/Kia models although I believe those are out of production.


There was a period of time where Chrysler made the absolute worst vehicles on the road. It's going to be a while before I trust their products.

But - I'm pretty sure they do not manufacture the 6 sp. autos.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I hate to say it, but the caravan would be a good choice. The beam axle wouldn't have awkward camber.


I agree, except not about the camber. Negative camber would be highly beneficial in a loaded situation like this. But I agree regarding the Mopar minivan because their towing prep package either does or at least used to come with self-leveling shocks (Sachs Nivomat). None of the other vans' towing prep packages included self-leveling suspension components.

Sure, you could add air shocks and a valve to nearly any minivan.

(And a few shims or strategically-spaced washers [as spacers] fixes the Caravan's shortcoming of zero rear camber!)


Extreme negative camber would be extremely dangerous. The weight is only going to be contacting on a portion of the tire, causing it to overheat and possibly blow. Especially if there is a lot of tongue weight.

 

[supton]

Parents had an Astro; it was unibody. I wonder how it'd be rated today: IIRC 4k curb, 160hp(?) (4.3 TBI), 3.42:1 gearing, 700R4. I have a tough time believing it'd still earn a 5k rating. No fun to work on but it was something of a workhorse. I think dad said he got 18mpg with it. Probably more on the highway I'd think.

*

I dunno. 19mpg vs 25mpg, Tundra vs Caravan. About a $1k/year difference in gas (25k/year). But, less tire cost etc. Just trying to be rational about this.

For the heck of it I just looked at dodge.com to see. Looks like tow package is only available on the most expensive R/T model ($30k new); not available on the lower rung models. Very annoyingly they do not tell what a non-tow package one is rated for. Not looking to buy new but just rerunning all the numbers.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: supton
Parents had an Astro; it was unibody. I wonder how it'd be rated today: IIRC 4k curb, 160hp(?) (4.3 TBI), 3.42:1 gearing, 700R4. I have a tough time believing it'd still earn a 5k rating. No fun to work on but it was something of a workhorse. I think dad said he got 18mpg with it. Probably more on the highway I'd think.

*

I dunno. 19mpg vs 25mpg, Tundra vs Caravan. About a $1k/year difference in gas (25k/year). But, less tire cost etc. Just trying to be rational about this.

For the heck of it I just looked at dodge.com to see. Looks like tow package is only available on the most expensive R/T model ($30k new); not available on the lower rung models. Very annoyingly they do not tell what a non-tow package one is rated for. Not looking to buy new but just rerunning all the numbers.


My Cherokee (unibody, 3200 pounds) is rated to tow 5000! That's just ... scary!

 

[thr_wedge]

I had a ZJ, also rated at 5000. No way would I ever have towed that much with my ZJ!!!

Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD!

Supton, so are you looking to get rid of the Tundra and the Jetta?

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Zaedock

It shared drivetrain and suspension components, but unlike the full framed S10, was a unibody.


Did not know that - thought it was body on frame like the Aerostar.


The Aerostar is also a unibody.

 

[hattaresguy]

Pretty much anything under a ton just about any vehicle will yank around. My buddy pulls his ATV trailer and loaded its probably about that with his diesel E class and doesn't have any problems what so ever, even on dirt roads. But that is an overbuilt RWD diesel car with lots of brake.

Anything over that and you have to see what your doing with it. If you want a travel trailer remember its not just the trailer weight, its all the [censored] you load into it and into the vehicle! If your like some people I know you might load another 3k pounds of [censored] into the truck and trailer!

I'd feel comfortable with your current rig yanking around something in the 5k-6k pound range, figure loaded its 2k more so if your rated for 9 your about right. Still up high in the mountains its going to suck wind.

 

[Zaedock]

I have had two Astro van's, a 99 and '05 and they were both trouble free. Even the AWD systems on both never gave me a problem and was outstanding in the snow. The only downside was the 12-13 MPG.

My new C/V Tradesman is nice and the 3.6L Pentastar runs pisah. Comfort between the two types is pretty equal, but the C/V handles much better and I've been getting 23-24 MPG. Time will tell on the longevity.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: thr_wedge

Supton, so are you looking to get rid of the Tundra and the Jetta?


Not sure what I am doing just yet. When I bought the Tundra I thought I would make the time to work on all three vehicles. Jetta for commuting, truck for the weekend. Then the VW specialist I had been going to closed shop; he said the guy who took over was coming up to speed. Next closest place is probably an hour... or more. Right now my car is throwing a code for, well, something. But it is not stock, so who knows, it needs debug. Would need $250 just in software, plus some time, if I started into it. Toss in the body holes I just fixed, the bent rear axle, loud ride, and need for tires... Wife won't drive it any more either.I have like two afternoons a week to mess with things, no garage and live in the middle of nowhere. Needs inspection next month too. I think it is time.

If I get rid of the Jetta I still have a 100 mile round trip commute. Wife likes her car (the Camry) so I'm not real keen on using it, plus, she drives as much as I do. So I don't know what I will do. It would be odd to trade for a minivan and still use it as a one occupant commuter. Not in a position to just go buy two unknown and well worn vehicles though. So I will weigh my options and go from there.

 

[IndyIan]

Keep the truck for weekends and trips, get a civic/corolla/focus/yaris for your commute.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: thr_wedge
I had a ZJ, also rated at 5000. No way would I ever have towed that much with my ZJ!!!

Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD!

Supton, so are you looking to get rid of the Tundra and the Jetta?


I pulled another ZJ on a trailer (about 6300 lbs total) behind my ZJ for 370 miles on the highway. V8 ZJs are rated to tow 6500. With just surge brakes on the trailer, stopping was manageable but not great. It did fine in terms of power though, and was pretty stable when cruising (the ZJ with me in it, a full tank of gas and some stuff in it was about 4600 - 4700 lbs). Doing 60 on the highway you could feel the weight back there and it would definitely push you a little at times, but it was stable and controllable. I wouldn't really want to do it again, but it was certainly not terrible.

 

[CBR.worm]

I was the one lucky guy, I towed weekly with an '89 Plymouth Voyager LE w/ A604 for over 200k miles w/o transmission problems. It had other issues and ended up dying ultimately at close to 300k with a bad head gasket not worth repairing.

I worry about my current tow vehicle, it is rated to tow 3,500 pounds. With my 2k load, it struggles at 80 on the highway. I am just about to hit 100k. Of course I was worried about it at 60k too...

 

[thr_wedge]

Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: thr_wedge

Supton, so are you looking to get rid of the Tundra and the Jetta?


Not sure what I am doing just yet. When I bought the Tundra I thought I would make the time to work on all three vehicles. Jetta for commuting, truck for the weekend. Then the VW specialist I had been going to closed shop; he said the guy who took over was coming up to speed. Next closest place is probably an hour... or more. Right now my car is throwing a code for, well, something. But it is not stock, so who knows, it needs debug. Would need $250 just in software, plus some time, if I started into it. Toss in the body holes I just fixed, the bent rear axle, loud ride, and need for tires... Wife won't drive it any more either.I have like two afternoons a week to mess with things, no garage and live in the middle of nowhere. Needs inspection next month too. I think it is time.

If I get rid of the Jetta I still have a 100 mile round trip commute. Wife likes her car (the Camry) so I'm not real keen on using it, plus, she drives as much as I do. So I don't know what I will do. It would be odd to trade for a minivan and still use it as a one occupant commuter. Not in a position to just go buy two unknown and well worn vehicles though. So I will weigh my options and go from there.


I've lived the 3 vehicles situation before. Ended up with barely time to work on any of them. If it was me I'd sell the Jetta and keep the truck and move on. Another beater is going to take time away from the family, you'll lose money selling the truck, and it doesn't sound like you want a minivan a whole lot. Good luck!

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Originally Posted By: thr_wedge
I had a ZJ, also rated at 5000. No way would I ever have towed that much with my ZJ!!!

Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD!

Supton, so are you looking to get rid of the Tundra and the Jetta?


I pulled another ZJ on a trailer (about 6300 lbs total) behind my ZJ for 370 miles on the highway. V8 ZJs are rated to tow 6500. With just surge brakes on the trailer, stopping was manageable but not great. It did fine in terms of power though, and was pretty stable when cruising (the ZJ with me in it, a full tank of gas and some stuff in it was about 4600 - 4700 lbs). Doing 60 on the highway you could feel the weight back there and it would definitely push you a little at times, but it was stable and controllable. I wouldn't really want to do it again, but it was certainly not terrible.


Does your ZJ have rear discs? I know the super light XJs could barely stop themselves from the factory. I couldn't imagine XJ brakes trying to stop 8000 pounds total!

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: supton

If I get rid of the Jetta I still have a 100 mile round trip commute. Wife likes her car (the Camry) so I'm not real keen on using it, plus, she drives as much as I do. So I don't know what I will do. It would be odd to trade for a minivan and still use it as a one occupant commuter. Not in a position to just go buy two unknown and well worn vehicles though. So I will weigh my options and go from there.


Drive the truck, other than fuel burn trucks are great vehicles to put the miles on. Heavy built body on frame vehicles rack them up really easy.

How is the Toyota on gas though? A couple guys I know with those trucks always complain about it. For some reasons the Toyota's seem to average what a 3/4 ton gets 10-14.

If gas starts killing you buy another car.

 

[hattaresguy]

For fun lets do some money math, simple and fast add detail if you want.

The Jetta is 9 model years old, so lets round up and say you put 32k miles on it a year.

Now lets have some fun:
A 2013 Jetta TDI seem to run online around $25,000. They claim 42mpg on the highway so lets use that figure.

284,000/42=6,762 rounded up gallons of diesel used. @ my best local price of right now at 3.93 a gallon is $26,574.28 for fuel over the life of the vehicle. So lets throw $10k on top of that number for taxes, insurance, etc.

So your looking at $61,574.29 over say 9 years assuming you keep the new Jetta as long as the old one. Or $6,841.59 a year.

So lets say you drive your truck to the same mileage from lets say its at 84k now for round numbers.

So 200,000 miles @ 15mpg=13,333.33 gallons of fuel. @ 3.48 that is $46,400 in fuel.

Lets say you keep it for 6 years and throw another $10k on that number for car stuff. Your at 9,400 a year.

I'd buy the 2013 Jetta or a something else that can break 40, that extra $20k in fuel is a lot.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Does your ZJ have rear discs? I know the super light XJs could barely stop themselves from the factory. I couldn't imagine XJ brakes trying to stop 8000 pounds total!


It does. But stopping was still weak, considering the total Jeep + trailer weight was about 11k lbs.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
For fun lets do some money math, simple and fast add detail if you want.

The Jetta is 9 model years old, so lets round up and say you put 32k miles on it a year.

Now lets have some fun:
A 2013 Jetta TDI seem to run online around $25,000. They claim 42mpg on the highway so lets use that figure.

284,000/42=6,762 rounded up gallons of diesel used. @ my best local price of right now at 3.93 a gallon is $26,574.28 for fuel over the life of the vehicle. So lets throw $10k on top of that number for taxes, insurance, etc.

So your looking at $61,574.29 over say 9 years assuming you keep the new Jetta as long as the old one. Or $6,841.59 a year.

So lets say you drive your truck to the same mileage from lets say its at 84k now for round numbers.

So 200,000 miles @ 15mpg=13,333.33 gallons of fuel. @ 3.48 that is $46,400 in fuel.

Lets say you keep it for 6 years and throw another $10k on that number for car stuff. Your at 9,400 a year.

I'd buy the 2013 Jetta or a something else that can break 40, that extra $20k in fuel is a lot.


Yes, $20k would be. Can't do it; I'm a bad person and floating not one but two car payments at the moment--Camry and Tundra. Tundra was bought as I could not find a decent truck that didn't cost an arm and a leg; or was otherwise undesirable (V6, reg cab, etc). Jetta was assumed to be good for a few more years, but I'm just tired of the VW requirements. Not about to take up a third payment so I can "save money." Really, I need to either fix the Jetta or trade the Tundra; trading the Jetta straight up means getting another beater in probably the same problematic shape. Trading the Tundra means finding something with more modest towing and better mpg; likely something FWD based. Hence this thread.

FWIW, before Tundra I was doing about 25kmiles/year each on Camry and Jetta. Getting the Tundra winds up around 22k/Camry, 20k/Jetta and 10k/Tundra, give or take (about 2k extra per year). I've only put 5k on the Tundra in the six months I've had, and its use has been varied, so its mpg isn't known. I got 16.8mpg for the first 3 tanks, then 20.7 on the following 2-3 tanks. I got 18-19 on a trip driving slow with the camper; I got 16 driving fast with the camper. I think the EPA est of 19 is about spot on for my commuting, perhaps 20 in summer and 18 in winter with snows.

 

[meep]

I owned a 2500lb pop up and towed it with a 3.3L caravan, so I have some room to speak here--- It does it and it does it very comfortably. In fact, it did it far better than the pathfinder he owned before the van.

now, the nissan was rated for 5,000 lbs and had the auxiliary AT cooler and all that, while the van was rated for 2500 as it was or 3500 if I added a cooler, which I did not do.

The caravan had leaf springs in the back, which handled the weight far better. the pathfinder's squishy rear end both sagged and also felt like it "mushed" side to side a little. the driveline was just fine with pulling the camper, but the shorter wheelbase was less comfortable on the highway in crosswinds, as the trailer was able to push the nissan around a bit.

I really wasn't sure what we were going to be getting into when I bought the town and country. FWD, smaller driveline, etc.. However, night and day it was a better tow vehicle. It was far more stable at speed, far more planted if the road was a little rough, and the tail didn't "wag the dog" or buck the vehicle as much when the camper was bouncing around back there on bridge joints.

Leaf Springs. Long wheelbase. They play.

And that 3.3 had the same amount of power than the nissan. in fact, I wondered if the 3.3 had more low end torque than the pathfinder, as it seemed to struggle LESS on the hills. I never really looked it up, but it seemed to thrash just a little bit less.

Yes, T&C AT's are suspect. The one we own right now has a weary eye on it. But I bought it at 83,000 miles barely running, holding no coolant pressure, busted shocks, electrical, messed-up AC, leaking oil from both VCs and the pan.... fixer-upper. The trans was off when I bought it and I suspect that the PO just didn't care for it. The engine runs like it was new--- and being an old pushrod design, has plenty of torque down where we live for daily driving. If the trans goes, we'll replace it--- the rest of the vehicle is worth it.

So--- if you are considering a 2500lb popup with heat and air, i think a FWD minivan is ok if you set it up right. Do pay attention to how much cargo you will also have in the camper and van. It can be difficult to actually tow the full rated load "by the book" when you put people, gear, etc. in the tow vehicle. and that goes for anything--- trucks too.

And don't just assume that because it is an SUV, RWD, etc. that it will do any better--- rear suspension + wheelbase are important, and many SUVs these days, or most of them, or sprung softly for comfort--- and shorter wheelbase can make them twitchy. Not to say they can't do it--- they can have better drivelines for it without a doubt, but the stability/comfort may not be as good. I would NOT want to tow a 3500 trailer with a minivan for more than an hour--- that starts getting awfully close.

Another thing about tow ratings. Take the vehicle's max and cut 20-25%. then consider whatever load you are carrying in the car. That's the real max if you are going any distance. It's no fun having to "live on the edge" when your wife and kids are in the car.

 

[supton]

I figure on not going past 80% of GCWR, maybe not even that much, not for the traveling I do. I prefer to make decent time and not be the overloaded guy sweating every hill nor breaking things on the way--last thing I want to deal with on a trip is a busted tire/transmission/spring/whatever.

Most trips are going to be more than 2 hours of driving; less and it's generally a day trip.