Towing and trans life

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supton

supton

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I always second guess myself; this past weekend I found myself looking up minivans, "just in case" they would make a better vehicle for my wants than my truck. I took a quick look specifically at Dodges, and towing on those. I came across a few opinions that went like this: "I had no problems towing at below the limit for 100miles and it's been fine for the 50k I've had it..." sort of response.

That has me thinking: Is there a component to sizing a vehicle that will see long distance travel in terms of, well, over-spec'ing it? As in, when the manufacturer says it's rated for x pounds, do they really mean it? Or, if you plan on doing long trips as routine, do you just spec the vehicle upwards?

I know we had a recent thread here about how the manufacturers aren't fooling around on these specs; they went to Death Valley etc and that the numbers are if anything conservative. But I was taken aback by a few comments as I searched around. To me 200miles is a short trip, 300miles isn't that much more. It's not the sort of thing I do every weekend, but I am planning on multiple trips per summer, usually 300+ from home.

I guess I could summarize this as, does anyone believe a FWD-derived transaxle is truly rated for hour upon hour of usage near its max weight? Let alone stopping/steering/wheelbase/track questions, just transmission and life, perhaps apart from even heat generation, since tacking on a cooler is pretty commonplace.
 
Back in the day, a part would be spec'd very conservatively. Now, the part is spec'd pretty much dead on. Yes, it will be spec'd correctly, but there is little (none?) wiggle room.

Marketing puts out a number, say 3500lbs. Engineering figures out a way to get 3500lbs. Maybe 3500lbs. + 10%, it won't be +50% or +100%. Every bit extra is wasted money (or they would just spec it higher). On top of that, no I don't think they are rating this for a 100% usage rate. I doubt even most trucks that aren't 3/4 or larger are rated like that. And I am sure that the tow rating on the Minivan is ONLY taking safety into consideration, not vehicle longevity.

Personally, I would rather have a truck rated at 9200lbs. than a Minivan rated at 3500lbs. As you mention wheelbase, braking, etc. will come into play as much as the tow rating itself.
 
When My grandparents had a boat, they always used minivans for towing, and they have never had any issues with a trans or engine, and they would take trips from Kentucky to Flordia, and back with the boat hooked up. TYPICALLY they keep their vehicles only for 100k miles, then trade them in.. But the last minivan(Chevy Astro) they had they gave to my mom, it has roughly 110k miles on it and still runs good, even though its neglected by my mother.

If it were me.. and I was going to be towing, Id want a truck, and if I needed more internal cargo space, id get a SUV.

Thats just my 2 cents.
 
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But the last minivan(Chevy Astro) they had they gave to my mom, it has roughly 110k miles on it and still runs good, even though its neglected by my mother.


I think that's the key. The Astro was built on the old S10 platform so it's basically a RWD pickup truck under the hood. A pretty proven and bulletproof drivetrain. Same with the Aerostars - based on the Ranger.

I'd not trust a FWD minivan towing a large load at all. They have enough problems keeping the transmissions in them normally, let alone with the added weight. Especially a Chrysler or Honda.

I'd even be iffy with one of the FWD based AWD crossovers (Flex, Explorer, Traverse, RAV, Highlander, etc.)

If you do go that route, change the transmission fluid at least every 30k.
 
i'm not sure that the weaknesses of minivan trans are such that are really affected by towing.

pulling from the infamous chrysler minivan trans, problems seem to be more common to speed sensor, solenoid pack, and seals/accumulators in the valve body. these components aren't "weight-bearing" parts.

transmissions suffering from TC failure, bearing failure, clutch failure would, IMO be more suspect.

That said, the cooling must be adequate--- certain ATs run hotter than others--- and the chryslers do run pretty hot--- they'd need extra cooling, as most units spec, when towing above a certain load.
 
I'd also assume the two rating was primarily driven by safety, then by marketing, and lastly by longevity (past the warranty period or around 120,000 miles). But I don't think it's fair to comment on whether the vehicle could handle it without considering the load.

As in... of course I think an Tundra with a 9000lb tow rating would better handle a 3000lb trailer than a Sienna with a 3500lb rating. But if it were a Tunrda towing 3000lbs (1/3 it's theoratical tow rating) vs a Sienna towing 1166lbs (1/3 it's tow rating) I don't see the difference. I don't see why a truck would have a larger margin built in than a car. So if you're towing something... say less than half the tow rating of the vehicle... I don't see why it would matter.

Toyota has more or less the same 6 speed in the new Highlander as the Sienna, one tows 3500 and one 5000 lbs. I'm sure longevity has little to do with it, it probably has more to do with the needs of the market (marketing vs competitors) and safety (Gross vehicle weight improvements probably due to larger tires on the suvs) than differences in the hardware. A minivan also fits a lot more of everything, but particularly weight, inside than an SUV.

As body on frame vehicles are getting scarce FWD based drivetrains towing will become more common.
 
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I guess I'm old school. IMO RWD is better for towing than a FWD drive vehicle is. I wouldn't tow too much with a FWD mini van. If you have to tow with it, a transmission cooler, synthetic ATF, and more frequent fluid/filter changes would be a good idea. Flame suit on.
 
Well, at the moment, I have a piddling little camper, probably about 1,000lb. Most anything should be ok with that. But when I shopped for my truck I wanted to eventually get a small travel trailer. After we did a good sized trip we (wife and I) rethought that a bit. We would like the bigger camper, but between a small driveway and the mpg penalty we might not get that big camper. Not anytime soon. But a large popup? Very probable.

Now, if I owned a minivan I'd aim for something well below 3k; since I don't own this trailer yet it is easy to pick a ceiling and live under it. As it was, I selected our current one on the basis that I should have been able to pull with the Jetta (which it did, but for other reasons it just didn't work out, like ground clearance and FWD traction and a high-geared reverse gear). Next camper I am looking for something with heat and a/c, as those two things were highly desired on our trips; a bigger box would be great. I honestly think it will be around 2,500lb, perhaps 3k. Trivial for the truck, but, taxing for anything else?

For reference, this year we only managed three trips: first one was a shakedown, 10miles from home. Our last one was a quick trip, probably 300miles from home (on the way home I wound up driving up Mt Cadillac with camper in tow). Our "big" trip of the year was 500miles from home. I don't see next year being different, other than having some shorter trips added in.
 
Length of trip doesn't matter for the trans, it is amount of shifting that does.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I hate to say it, but the caravan would be a good choice. The beam axle wouldn't have awkward camber.

Throw a giant cooler on it.



Ehhh, have we forgotten the track record of the transmissions in those things?
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I hate to say it, but the caravan would be a good choice. The beam axle wouldn't have awkward camber.


I agree, except not about the camber. Negative camber would be highly beneficial in a loaded situation like this. But I agree regarding the Mopar minivan because their towing prep package either does or at least used to come with self-leveling shocks (Sachs Nivomat). None of the other vans' towing prep packages included self-leveling suspension components.

Sure, you could add air shocks and a valve to nearly any minivan.

(And a few shims or strategically-spaced washers [as spacers] fixes the Caravan's shortcoming of zero rear camber!)
 
The 6 Speed is worlds apart from the old 4 speeds.

Mopar ATF4+ is already synthetic to boot but I'd throw a cooler on it anyway.

The one thing that I find odd is the occlusion of transmission temp in the dash menu. Oil temp & pressure are there along with engine hours but not trans temp.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I guess I'm old school. IMO RWD is better for towing than a FWD drive vehicle is. I wouldn't tow too much with a FWD mini van. If you have to tow with it, a transmission cooler, synthetic ATF, and more frequent fluid/filter changes would be a good idea. Flame suit on.


Agreed. FWD platforms are generally less overbuilt, and more importantly, they absolutely suck at towing in the hills. Go to take off uphill with a heavy trailer and FWD and see how it works. It just ends in lots of wheelspin, tears and sadness.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I hate to say it, but the caravan would be a good choice. The beam axle wouldn't have awkward camber.


I agree, except not about the camber. Negative camber would be highly beneficial in a loaded situation like this. But I agree regarding the Mopar minivan because their towing prep package either does or at least used to come with self-leveling shocks (Sachs Nivomat). None of the other vans' towing prep packages included self-leveling suspension components.

Sure, you could add air shocks and a valve to nearly any minivan.

(And a few shims or strategically-spaced washers [as spacers] fixes the Caravan's shortcoming of zero rear camber!)


I see no reason why negative camber would be helpful when towing. It would help handling when unloaded, but when loaded, the flatter contact patch should be better. How many trucks set up for heavy hauling / towing run any camber in the rear?
 
If you stick with a tent trailer, I wouldn't be too worried about towing at say 2/3 or maximum weight in a minivan as atleast the aero drag isn't that much.
Do any vans offer a manual mode? If you can control the shifting and pick the right ratio yourself, I wouldn't worry too much about how much towing you are going to do.
These big 280+hp V6's must pull quite well at 2500rpm, put it in 4th or 5th out of 6, and go up the hills as fast as you want.
 
A pop-up probably doesn't matter. If you start going into travel trailers, you're going to want more wheelbase, more brakes, more torque, more RWD, etc. Will the minivan do it? I am sure it will. Will it be a fun trip?

My family just went through a similar decision process, and ended up with an Expy EL. Part of it was payload/towing capacity, part of it was usable interior space. You couldn't beat the Suburban/Expy El in terms of behind the 3rd row interior space. That and available/usable hp & torque from the V8 compared to the minivan V6 offerings wasn't even a contest.

I read everywhere "never had a problem" or "it was okay as long as you kept the speed down" when it comes to using sub-optimal vehicles. Just like taking a F350 crew cab long bed to downtown Boston to catch a game is not the greatest idea, even though "it's probably okay, just stick to the main roads and don't go down any side streets, my brother did it and didn't have a problem".
 
Originally Posted By: itguy08
The Astro was built on the old S10 platform so it's basically a RWD pickup truck under the hood. A pretty proven and bulletproof drivetrain. Same with the Aerostars - based on the Ranger.


It shared drivetrain and suspension components, but unlike the full framed S10, was a unibody.

My old Astro was rated to 5000 lbs towing. My new 2013 Ram C/V Tradesman is rated to 3500 lbs.
 
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
The 6 Speed is worlds apart from the old 4 speeds.

Mopar ATF4+ is already synthetic to boot but I'd throw a cooler on it anyway.



Sorry to say, new or not, I don't know I'd trust it from Chrysler. Look at their quality and dependability rankings. Especially for the Minivans. The trans may be good but would you want to be the guinea pig?

Same with Honda - I'd never tow with an Odyssey. Same trans issues on them.

You don't hear too much about the Toyotas eating transmissions or even the Hyundai/Kia models although I believe those are out of production.
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock

It shared drivetrain and suspension components, but unlike the full framed S10, was a unibody.


Did not know that - thought it was body on frame like the Aerostar.
 
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