Total Classic 5W30 For BMW 335I, and Audi A6 3.2

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Turkeybaster115

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I was wondering what you guys thought of this oil for these two vehicles which I own. Here is some info on the oil:

Spec
http://www.total-lubricants.ca/uploads/t...E%20%20MSDS.pdf

MSDS
http://www.total-lubricants.ca/uploads/t...E%20%20MSDS.pdf

This oil seems to be a "mixture" which should correspond to a group III semi-synthetic. It's only certification is API SM, which should be enough to meet BMW's LL01 (API SJ, or greater):

http://www.oilspecifications.org/bmw.php

Both of these cars are direct injection, with the BMW N54 running at high temps (250F). I was thinking of using this oil in both engines for like 5-7K mile intervals. What do you guys think?
 
Why are you showing us groups for basestocks and speculating? The basestock is more or less irrelevant.

Does it meet LL-01 or not is the first question...
 
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115


This oil seems to be a "mixture" which should correspond to a group III semi-synthetic. It's only certification is API SM, which should be enough to meet BMW's LL01 (API SJ, or greater):

http://www.oilspecifications.org/bmw.php



Does it also meet ACEA A3/B3? The spec link shows
"Product meets ACEA A3/B3 and API: SJ/CD EC-II"

I would look for a BMW LL-01 approved oil.
Mobil 1 - 0w-40
Castrol Syntec/Edge 0w-30

These two probably also meet the Audi oil specs.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why are you showing us groups for basestocks and speculating? The basestock is more or less irrelevant.

Does it meet LL-01 or not is the first question...


From the link I provided you can see that LL01, is defined as: being at least API SJ, or greater, and/or ACEA A3/B3 or greater. I would assume that an oil that certifies as API SM, would have no problem clearing ACEA A3/B3.
 
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
I would assume that an oil that certifies as API SM, would have no problem clearing ACEA A3/B3.

That's a very incorrect assumption. For one, ACEA A3/B3 requires HT/HS to be at least 3.5 cP. API SM has no such requirement.

Just to add, from what I see, this Total 5w-30 meets ILSAC GF-4 spec which is a fuel economy spec. Given that, it most likely has HT/HS of a lot less than 3.5 cP and therefore cannot meet ACEA A3 nor BMW LL-01 nor VW 502.00. Hence, I would not use it in the cars you mentioned.

Here is the TDS by the way:
http://www.total-lubricants.ca/uploads/t...%20SL%20PIB.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why are you showing us groups for basestocks and speculating? The basestock is more or less irrelevant.

Does it meet LL-01 or not is the first question...


From the link I provided you can see that LL01, is defined as: being at least API SJ, or greater, and/or ACEA A3/B3 or greater. I would assume that an oil that certifies as API SM, would have no problem clearing ACEA A3/B3.


LL-01 defines a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP.

And your thinking is backwards: The ACEA protocols have historically been much more stringent than those of the API.
 
API SM is weak sauce compared to LL-01 (or ACEA A3).
smile.gif


SM_LL01.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why are you showing us groups for basestocks and speculating? The basestock is more or less irrelevant.

Does it meet LL-01 or not is the first question...


From the link I provided you can see that LL01, is defined as: being at least API SJ, or greater, and/or ACEA A3/B3 or greater. I would assume that an oil that certifies as API SM, would have no problem clearing ACEA A3/B3.


SM does not = ACEA.

For instance, this is what I use in the Mustang:http://www.mobil.us/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-super-5w20.aspx#

I would not of even thought of using it in the Z4, as it is neither A3 or LL-01.
 
Just food for thought here guys. BMW, does not use LL01, or ACEA approved oils in its //M engines. In fact, castrol TWS 10W 60 carries only API SJ certification if, I'm not mistaken. SJ is an out dated and inferior test compared to SM.

http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/home.htm

I find it very hard to believe that any oil carrying API SM can't clear the basic A3/B3, which is the minimum requirement for LL01. For example look at pentosin's LL01 5W 30. Its API SL, and still clears ACEA A3/B4, as well as gets the LL01 approval:

http://pentosin.net/pressreleases/CRP-116_Pento_5w-30_HighPerf_2.pdf

I'm aware of the flawed logic of comparing the API tests to the ACEA tests--> http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pub/070308_ACEA_sequences_2007_LD_and_HD.pdf However, I'm still finding it hard to believe that any oil which is rated API SM won't be able to best the basic ACEA test of A3/B3. Or that it won't be safe in any euro DI motor for 5-7K mile intervals.
 
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BTW, BMW DOES spec an LL-01 oil for the ///M engines. The S62 was switched from 10w60 to LL-01 5w30 after 03/00. I have one. I am currently running M1 0w40 in it.

Go to Lubrizol's site, use their relative performance tool and put in SM and A3/B3. The difference is HUGE.

In the Pentosin oil you are talking about, the A3/B4 spec trumps the SL spec, so it becomes irrelevant. Use the tool and take a look at the differences.

BTW, TWS was designed for and tested in the ///M engines. It's API certification is irrelevant. It meets a set of specific performance criteria that were necessary to keep the engine family it was designed for (which wasn't the S62) alive. It was a co-development between Castrol and BMW. It is application specific, therefore its "other" credentials mean basically nothing.
 
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
I find it very hard to believe that any oil carrying API SM can't clear the basic A3/B3, which is the minimum requirement for LL01.

Your problem is assuming the standards are related in some way. They're not.

Most API SM oils will meet ACEA A1/A5, both of which allow lighter oils.
ACEA A3/B3 requires HTHS viscosity of at least 3.5, while a 5W-30 API SM oil can be as low as 2.9.

Likewise, meeting ACEA A3/B3 does not mean the oil will meet LL-01.

You need to look for an oil that specifically states that it meets LL-01.
 
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster


I find it very hard to believe that any oil carrying API SM can't clear the basic A3/B3,

Why do you find it so hard to believe? These are completely different spec for different applications.

Quote:

For example look at pentosin's LL01 5W 30. Its API SL, and still clears ACEA A3/B4, as well as gets the LL01 approval:


just because one oil is both api sl/Sm and acea a3 does not mean all of them can be.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
API SM is weak sauce compared to LL-01 (or ACEA A3).
smile.gif


SM_LL01.jpg



This tool, IMHO, is severely flawed. First, note the disclaimer on the bottom: "Charts are not a literal translations of a performance specification" Then, note the fact that if a car is tested to be API SM it is tested in an american High performance V8, which is not direct injected, the European motor used for the BMW LL01 (ACEA A3) is. The fact that the type of motors used in each test is different makes it impossible to say that for example ACEA/BMW LL soot score of 6 > API SM soot score of 2.

The conclusion that I'm trying to make is that when you look at oils that have multiple testing certifications, all oils that are API SJ or greater, always meet ACEA A3/B3. This fact, is the basis for this declaration: BMW LL01= API SJ+, and ACEA A3B3+: http://www.oilspecifications.org/bmw.php So because we know that SM > SJ, why can't we say that all SM all will most likely clear ACEA A3B3 when tested. You can only refute this by providing an example of an multi-certifyed oil that was SM, but tested lower than ACEA A3B3.
 
Last edited:
There are plenty of api Sm oils out there that don't meet aces a3, again due to hths requirement. An energy conserving oil like this total classic 5w30 will never meet aces a3 because its hths is too low. And it has to be low to be energy conserving.
 
While you may be able to "get away" with using an SM oil with short OCIs in a normally aspirated BMW like my wife's 530i, you will regret, if you keep the car long enough, not using an A3/B3 LL01 oil in the 535i with its oil-stressing turbo.
 
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
You can only refute this by providing an example of an multi-certifyed oil that was SM, but tested lower than ACEA A3B3.

The examples are numerous.
Mobil1 5W-30 is API SN but ACEA A1/A5
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30 is API SN but ACEA A1

Convinced yet?

As well as Castrol Edge 5w-30, Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30, Pennzoil Ultra 5w-30 (not Ultra Euro), and all the Xw-30 mineral oils. The only mineral oils that might be able to meet ACEA A3 (if they were to be submitted for testing) would be 10w-40 probably because they'd have high enough HT/HS, but even then, I'm not sure they'd pass since the ACEA spec is more than just high HT/HS. The oil needs to be robust enough to withstand extended drain intervals - something that's hard to do with a mineral oil such as this Total Classic 5w-30.
 
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