torque sticks

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What's the proper way to use these? I had some tires mounted the other day, and the wheel nuts would not budge when I checked, even with 150 ft-lbs on my beam torque wrench. I went back, and the guy showed me how he uses a 65 ft-lb Torque Stick to tighten the nuts. I went to take off the nut he had just done, and it took over 120 ft-lbs to move it.

I had compared my wrench against a clicker torque wrench last year, and it was within 10 ft-lbs. When I tighten a wheel nut to 70 ft-lbs, it only takes about 80-85 to break it loose again.

These things seem to work by damping the impacts of the impact wrench. The torque should depend on the rotational inertia of the impact wrench mechanism, with a more massive wrench generating a higher torque.
 
I'd love to know the answer to this question too. But I'm now thinking you've hit the nail on the head - an impact wrench works not by slowly applying torque as we would with a wrench. It works far more like beating on a wrench with a hammer. In the case of a frozen nut, we're hoping that the impact of the hammer on the wrench causes a very narrow in time torque spike that gets over the release torque of the frozen fastener, breaking it loose.

(Note to purists - it's possible that in talking torque, I'm not adequately describing the physics that are going on here. Instead of a torque peak phenomena, it may be more accurate to look at things in the energy domain - IE: it's not a torque spike, but an energy spike that overcomes the energy required to break the bond that's binding the nut. But, that's more esoteric that I think this discussion needs to be.)

The torque stick acts like a spring, winding up to limit the torque that's applied through it. Or, you could say that the torque stick drops that torque peak by spreading it out over time. But, the limiting effect absolutely is dependent on the impact applied by the impact wrench. If I take a small torque stick, and apply a monster impact to it, it won't apply the same amount of torque to the fastener if I used my el-cheapo Harbor Freight unit that barely puts out any impact.

ALL THAT SAID, I believe that you need to go somewhere else for your tires! Torque sticks and impact wrenches are not the proper equipment for the final torquing of tire lug nuts, for reasons you've noted - they can apply waaay too much torque! Always use a hand-applied torque wrench for final torque, never a torque-stick! I will attempt to find a cite for this.

However, something to note is that breakaway torque is not a super-accurate measure of how much torque was applied. It's about a 10% accurate measurement, at best! Your results of your breakaway torque clearly do show your lug nuts were overtightened. If the mechanic said he tightened to 100 FT-LBS and you measured anywhere from 90 to 110, I'd say that would be right.

(A side note - on my second job, I was given the responsibility of writing a company wide torque spec. I spent about a month researching torque, how accurate torque wrenches are, how accurate is torque as a measure of pre-load (it's not!), and various commercial and military specifications. Part of my research included a testing of break-away torque as a quality control method, as we had hardware fail NASA flight vibration testing and were using breakaway torque to try and understand if fabrication QA had failed. In our case, we couldn't demonstrate that breakaway torque was a good enough measurement to determine if or not fabrication QA had goofed.)

thanks much,
ben
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser

These things seem to work by damping the impacts of the impact wrench. The torque should depend on the rotational inertia of the impact wrench mechanism, with a more massive wrench generating a higher torque.


Input torque, unless it is below the rating of the "torque stick" doesn't matter. If you have a 100 ft/lb stick, whether you input 100 ft/lbs or 600 ft/lbs from an impact, the resultant torque on the nut is the same. I do agree that if the rotating mass/rotating component of the impact wrench was large enough, it could override the spring qualities of the torque stick, but that is why they are designed to be used with 1/2" impacts.

Our dealership, in a rare rare moment of generosity, bought each tech a brand new set of Rotunda branded torque sticks. We tested the heck out of them with all different torque settings, different impacts etc and they were spot on from the 60 ft/lb stick to the 140 ft/lb stick. The disbelievers (me included) were converted, and I have nothing negative to say about them. I use them religiously now and no complaints.

No idea about the Harbor Freight or Chinese equivilents out there. No telling on that stuff.
 
They were trying to do a good job, but didn't calibrate the procedure. Fortunately he didn't grease things up like a lot of shops do.
 
Originally Posted By: punisher
We tested the heck out of them with all different torque settings, different impacts etc and they were spot on from the 60 ft/lb stick to the 140 ft/lb stick. The disbelievers (me included) were converted, and I have nothing negative to say about them. I use them religiously now and no complaints.


Interesting! What was your test setup when you tested them?

Tighten with torque stick and break with a beam-type or max-indicating dial type?

I'm very curious! The physics seem to dictate that the impact force would be critical. If you had one 1/2" wrench that developed 400 FT-LBS torque peak and one that only did 200 FT-LBS torque peak, even with the torque stick, the 400 FT-LBS unit will tighten more than the 200 FT-LBS unit.

Did you vary brand/type/rating of 1/2" impact wrench? I know that Sears sells a whole torque range of 1/2" impacts. (I know 'cause I bought one recently and spent some extra $'s for extra peak torque.)

later,
b
 
The peak torque at the end of the stick should vary with the amount of energy of each impact, since a spring will have more force on it as it stores more energy.
 
Precision in applying torque doesn't make a lot of sense when the friction between the nut and stud will vary tremendously (factor of 2 or 3) depending on surface preparation of the stud and nut and lubrication. Even w/ everything controlled, friction varies considerably for surfaces. That's why for very precise bolt tensioning, stud tensioners are used which apply a known hydraulic force to tension the study.

IMO, the reason bolts are so much harder to remove than install is a difference between the forward and reverse friction, and some subtle chemisty effect between metal surfaces causing friction to increase w/ time.

regards
 
I had a problem with over tighten nuts and went back to the tire shop to complain and have them loosen the nuts. I was watching the kid work on other vehicles with a impact and torque stick. He would start the nuts by hand with a turn or two and then use the impact to spin on the nuts till tight just like the guys in the pits at a Nascar race. Does this procedure build up momentum and cause over tightening?
 
Quote:
ALL THAT SAID


I see you have gotten into the laborious qualifications and disclaiming that appears to be required to avoid needless rhetorical "re-education". I guess it's easier to get it out of the way up front than it is posting again asserting that you really didn't mean it when you used a misnomer in a common rhetorical manner since you figured you would give others credit for figuring this out ..meanwhile ..they gave you too little credit and figured that you hadn't. It makes for longer posts (how do I know this?).
 
Originally Posted By: kd5byb

Did you vary brand/type/rating of 1/2" impact wrench? I know that Sears sells a whole torque range of 1/2" impacts. (I know 'cause I bought one recently and spent some extra $'s for extra peak torque.)
later,
b


We tested the torque with clicker type torque wrenches as no one in the shop owned a beam type. I had a 3/8" dial type torque wrench but it only went to 30 ft/lb. We used sticks with 3 different impacts and the lugs broke loose reliably at ~110% of rated torque(to the best of my recollection). This was close to 13 years ago.

Oilyriser, I think the actual duration of the applied force (impact) is more of a determining factor than the force applied (within reason). I don't think there are any absolutes, the sticks work well with the normal 1/2" impacts you find in most automotive shops. I wouldn't bet on a sticks accuracy adapted up to my dad's scary 1" IR impact he used for pipeline work.

I hope some hardcore physics types come around and straighten me out.
 
Tightening and loosening torque is always different.
People sometimes measure the torque to remove head bolts to figure out what is right to tighten them again.
It doesn't work that way!
Those torque rods are useful and help get even torque - much more important then being off a few ft/lbs. They work with a range of impact gun settings, and still be within spec. They are useful in a high volume shop, not for home use.
 
Breaking torque 15 lbs over setting torques seems about normal.

As far as toque sticks go you have to calibrate them. Yeah with what moving part right??? Well not that way. I have a Matco Tools version of a Ingersol Rand Titanium 1/2" impact and it rarely goes over setting 1 of 4. Why because my 65 lbs stick comes out close to 80 and my 80 goes to 100 and my 100 is very close to the 140-150 zone. Very good for most of the cars I work on. Got used to them when I was sears and we had to stop and use a torque stick to final set. If you hit them too hard you would be WAY over. Put my gun on setting 4 of 4 with a 80 stick and it will go way over 150.

So you have to find how your gun reacts to your torque sticks to know what you got. Once you know use wisely. If not why use them in the first time.
 
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