Torque Converter clutch kit - Honda City (1.5 ivtec)

[SureshR]

I rather suspect a clutch failure on a 2011 City (same torque converter as that generation of Civic / Fit etc). Gear shifting takes place and there are no errors but I can't accelerate over 40-50 kilometers an hour without significant effort, and mileage is about half of what it should be.

Before coming to this, I did all these -

1. Replaced the PCV valve (and cleaned its breather hose)
2. Replaced the evap canister valve in the gas tank
3. Cleaned the throttle body, MAF sensor (etc) which had accumulated gunk over the years

There is a slight lag in gear changing, as if the one way torque converter isn't slipping, but doesn't release too well, so that acceleration is retarded and mileage drops about 50%

Is there anything that will turn up in an OBD scan to confirm this diagnosis without opening up the transmission? How feasible is it to service these with new clutch rings (and/or whatever is the equivalent of a clutch release bearing in a torque converter) rather than sell the car and get another slightly newer (5-7 year old) beater for strictly local use in a city with congested traffic?

 

[JavierH19]

I think the problem might just be with the entire transmission itself. The torque converter would not stop you from trying to go beyond 40-50km. The torque converter only engages to transfer power from the engine to the transmission and disengage the connection between the engine and trans to prevent the engine from shutting off when coming to a stop. The torque converter acting weird is also caused by the transmission since the valve body controls the pressure and variation for the torque converter.

Google tells the the city has 5 speeds with paddle shifters. Do you have the paddle shifters? can you manually try to accelerate and cycle through the gears. I once had this weird problem with my ford ranger where it would not automatically shift into 3rd or 4th but if i would manually shift it with the column shifter it would engage the 3rd and 4th gears the transmission could not automatically engage on its own and i could still drive it at high speeds if i did that. Try to do the same if you are able to manually shift it. I ended up having a transmission shop fix the valve body and it fixed the issue. But i did not have any weird symptoms with the torque converter but it is still possible. The torque converter is controlled by the valve body.

 

[SureshR]

Using the paddle shifters shifts gears just fine. There’s a noticeable lag in the shifting but no jerkiness as such.

 

[JavierH19]

Using the paddle shifters shifts gears just fine. There’s a noticeable lag in the shifting but no jerkiness as such.

Yes I imagine it is able to shift into 2nd or 3rd on its own with no problem but are you able to push through the 40-50km problem zone and get into 4th and 5th gear. If so that's better. It could possibly be a pressure related issue, there might not be enough pressure in the system. Transmissions require much higher operating oil pressure compared to a car engine. If there is a valve body gasket or o ring leak it will typically cause that.

 

[SureshR]

I am able to push it hard and at high rpm it goes to 60-70. Yes probably a leaky O ring or bad pressure control solenoids. I'll take it to a transmission workshop and see if it is a simple fix.

 

[CharBaby]

Yes, that is a good Idea.

 

[Marcozi]

You need to scan the transmission control unit for codes. An OBD2 reader won't do the trick.

 

[MSCH]

I rather suspect a clutch failure on a 2011 City (same torque converter as that generation of Civic / Fit etc). Gear shifting takes place and there are no errors but I can't accelerate over 40-50 kilometers an hour without significant effort, and mileage is about half of what it should be.

Before coming to this, I did all these -

1. Replaced the PCV valve (and cleaned its breather hose)
2. Replaced the evap canister valve in the gas tank
3. Cleaned the throttle body, MAF sensor (etc) which had accumulated gunk over the years

There is a slight lag in gear changing, as if the one way torque converter isn't slipping, but doesn't release too well, so that acceleration is retarded and mileage drops about 50%

Is there anything that will turn up in an OBD scan to confirm this diagnosis without opening up the transmission? How feasible is it to service these with new clutch rings (and/or whatever is the equivalent of a clutch release bearing in a torque converter) rather than sell the car and get another slightly newer (5-7 year old) beater for strictly local use in a city with congested traffic?

if you have a good scan tool capable of reading many parameters, if you compare engine speed to turbine speed inside the tranny, if the converter clutch is not holding, turbine speed will not be equal to engine speed. otherwise those speeds are 1 to 1 if clutch is operating properly./

 

[SureshR]

if you have a good scan tool capable of reading many parameters, if you compare engine speed to turbine speed inside the tranny, if the converter clutch is not holding, turbine speed will not be equal to engine speed. otherwise those speeds are 1 to 1 if clutch is operating properly./

Turbo speed you mean? This is a 1.5 liter naturally aspirated engine.

Calculated load value 59.2 %
Coolant Temperature 87 °C
Short term fuel trim Bank 1 0.0 %
Intake Manifold Pressure 0.57 bar
Engine Speed - RPM 660.00 rpm
Vehicle Speed 0 km/h
Ignition timing advance 9.0 °
Intake air temperature 59 °C
Maf air flow 4.17 g/s
Absolute Throttle sensor position 16.1 %
Time since engine start 951 seconds
Commanded evaporative purge 5.5 %
Barometric pressure 1.00 bar
Control module voltage 13.800 Volt
Absolute load value 43.1 %
Fuel/air commanded equivalence ratio 0.999
Relative throttle position 4.7 %
Absolute throttle position B 32.9 %
Accelerator pedal position D 19.6 %
Accelerator pedal position E 9.8 %
Commanded throttle actuator control 5.1 %

 

[DuckRyder]

I agree with above post that this does not sound like a converter clutch problem.

There is no "clutch kit" it is not that sort of clutch, it is a fiber in the converter (possibly a couple with steels) and works like the other clutches in the transmission which means its applied by pressure. Replacing it entails cutting the converter apart and/or replacing the converter. The TCC makes the less than 100% effective fluid coupling a solid lock up 100% effective.

Again though your problem does not sound like a TCC.

 

[SureshR]

Probably the transmission itself then. Sigh.

It’s at the stage where selling it might be cheaper than doing anything at all to the transmission

 

[MSCH]

Turbo speed you mean? This is a 1.5 liter naturally aspirated engine.

Calculated load value 59.2 %
Coolant Temperature 87 °C
Short term fuel trim Bank 1 0.0 %
Intake Manifold Pressure 0.57 bar
Engine Speed - RPM 660.00 rpm
Vehicle Speed 0 km/h
Ignition timing advance 9.0 °
Intake air temperature 59 °C
Maf air flow 4.17 g/s
Absolute Throttle sensor position 16.1 %
Time since engine start 951 seconds
Commanded evaporative purge 5.5 %
Barometric pressure 1.00 bar
Control module voltage 13.800 Volt
Absolute load value 43.1 %
Fuel/air commanded equivalence ratio 0.999
Relative throttle position 4.7 %
Absolute throttle position B 32.9 %
Accelerator pedal position D 19.6 %
Accelerator pedal position E 9.8 %
Commanded throttle actuator control 5.1 %

Turbine speed... not turbocharger speed... you need a better scan tool that shows transmission info... for instance a torque converter has a pump side which is driven at engine speed.... the turbine side of the torque converter is the input to the transmission... if the device has a torque converter clutch and the TCC is applied the engine speed and the turbine speed will be the same... at idle when the TCC is unlocked and you are not moving, aka your brake is applied you will read the idle speed of the engine and a turbine speed of transmission as zero, because the transmission is not turning... if you release the brake and start accelerating, the turbine speed will go higher as it is being pushed my the pump side of the torque converter thru a fluid coupling... when they apply the TCC the torque converter stops being a torque converter and becomes a mechanical clutch, with no slippage... so if TCC is slipping when applied engine speed and turbine speed will not match... it's important to know when the TCC applies as different vehicles apply it in different situations... for instance on my old GM truck, TCC only applied above 50mph in 3rd or 4th range, whereas in my current Mopar TCC applies in 2nd gear...

 

[SureshR]

at idle when the TCC is unlocked and you are not moving, aka your brake is applied you will read the idle speed of the engine and a turbine speed of transmission as zero, because the transmission is not turning... if you release the brake and start accelerating,

That explains it. I need to gather data with the car in motion, not just revved with the brake applied. Thanks!

 

[MSCH]

That explains it. I need to gather data with the car in motion, not just revved with the brake applied. Thanks!

bingo..