Top Tier Gasoline?

[zloveraz]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
startpage is no more secure than Google, the only difference is startpage does't track the users like Google does other than that the NSA can access startpage just as well as Google and I bet they are less secure than Google.

QUOTE: "Startpage does NOT collect or share ANY personal information!
"Nada. Zilch. Nothing.
"Since January 2009 we do not record our users' IP addresses anymore. We are the first and only search engine to do so. Our initiative is receiving an overwhelmingly positive response!" - It's also worth nothing startpage is outside the U.S. and therefore outside of the NSA's juris diction.

Yeah NSA can't monitor anything in Europe... Sure.......

 

[Ayrton]

I believe it makes a big difference to use gasoline with a proper/strong amount of cleaning additives.

I use Top Tier almost exclusively, and I try to use brands that I believe even exceed Top Tier significantly, like Shell and Chevron.

However, on one of my cars that is driven enough to go through quite a few tanks, I will once every 45-60 days fill up a single tank with grocery store brand because by that time I've heard an entire $1.00 off per gallon and it's hard to argue with that. However, I make sure to use Techron at least once a year in that car (the concentrate from auto parts store).

 

[TrevorS]

+100

See the Amsoil PI brochure I linked to in another post to see what deposits build up in all sorts of vehicles.

 

[TiredTrucker]

The Pilot Flying J article forgets one thing... Additives are added at the terminal when the tank truck is loaded, regardless of who is getting it. I used to tank fuel, and this was how it went.... you pull up and hook up the bulkheads to the various source hoses. You swipe your access card at the operator area, at that time, you specify who is getting the fuel and the system already has the information on what they are getting and how much additive they want. The process of loading the bulkheads begins. You can see various additive tanks being activated near the hoses, shooting the required additive into the fuel stream at the amounts specified by the customer.

So PFJ is just trying to dodge the issue in the article and deflect liability. It is a ruse. They have full control of what, and how much, additive they have in their fuel. They want to play on the cheap, and then claim they have no control on the additive content. Bull. Whether it is them, or the Costco down the street, or the Amoco on the next block, or the Seven Eleven downtown... they get their fuel from the same tanks, at the same terminal. It is mixed at the specifications they want and loaded for delivery. It is all up to the receiving entity how much and of what type of additives they want in their fuel.

Maybe the individual station has no control over the level of additive they get, but the corporate headquarters of that station sure does. PFJ has been in a lot of hot water this year, especially regarding trucking diesel. They have just had to pay out millions of dollars to over 5500 trucking companies because of cheating on discounts they had negotiated with those trucking companies. This top tier fuel thing that they claim they have no control is in line with the problems they have gotten themselves in already. They are operating on the cheap, screwing the end user, and claiming the Bill Clinton line of "it ain't my fault".

 

[sopususer]

This whole thread makes me wonder if the NSA uses top tier gasoline in their own vehicles, I guarantee they know which gas has the most additive.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

[whip]

How many people have no idea what top tier gasoline is? How many people never use it? Of those people, how many never have fuel related problems? IMO, top tier gas is just a marketing gimmick. The fact that retailers have to pay to use the term, seals it for me.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Is there any evidence that the EPA mandated amount isn't sufficient to keep an engine operating efficiently?



YES. That is how Top Tier came to be. Top Tier evolved from BMW's long life tests where they measured valve deposits. Fuels that were tested to pass BMW's long life tests with no deposit build up were eventually what has become Top Tier.

So yes, there were tests, showing fuels with EPA minimum levels were leaving deposits on valves and fuels with higher levels of detergents were not.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
The Pilot Flying J article forgets one thing... Additives are added at the terminal when the tank truck is loaded, regardless of who is getting it. I used to tank fuel, and this was how it went.... you pull up and hook up the bulkheads to the various source hoses. You swipe your access card at the operator area, at that time, you specify who is getting the fuel and the system already has the information on what they are getting and how much additive they want. The process of loading the bulkheads begins. You can see various additive tanks being activated near the hoses, shooting the required additive into the fuel stream at the amounts specified by the customer.

So PFJ is just trying to dodge the issue in the article and deflect liability. It is a ruse. They have full control of what, and how much, additive they have in their fuel. They want to play on the cheap, and then claim they have no control on the additive content. Bull. Whether it is them, or the Costco down the street, or the Amoco on the next block, or the Seven Eleven downtown... they get their fuel from the same tanks, at the same terminal. It is mixed at the specifications they want and loaded for delivery. It is all up to the receiving entity how much and of what type of additives they want in their fuel.

Maybe the individual station has no control over the level of additive they get, but the corporate headquarters of that station sure does. PFJ has been in a lot of hot water this year, especially regarding trucking diesel. They have just had to pay out millions of dollars to over 5500 trucking companies because of cheating on discounts they had negotiated with those trucking companies. This top tier fuel thing that they claim they have no control is in line with the problems they have gotten themselves in already. They are operating on the cheap, screwing the end user, and claiming the Bill Clinton line of "it ain't my fault".


Pilot is the sorriest big chain truckstop. Small parking lots especially frustrated me.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
The Pilot Flying J article forgets one thing... Additives are added at the terminal when the tank truck is loaded, regardless of who is getting it. I used to tank fuel, and this was how it went.... you pull up and hook up the bulkheads to the various source hoses. You swipe your access card at the operator area, at that time, you specify who is getting the fuel and the system already has the information on what they are getting and how much additive they want. The process of loading the bulkheads begins. You can see various additive tanks being activated near the hoses, shooting the required additive into the fuel stream at the amounts specified by the customer.

So PFJ is just trying to dodge the issue in the article and deflect liability. It is a ruse. They have full control of what, and how much, additive they have in their fuel. They want to play on the cheap, and then claim they have no control on the additive content. Bull. Whether it is them, or the Costco down the street, or the Amoco on the next block, or the Seven Eleven downtown... they get their fuel from the same tanks, at the same terminal. It is mixed at the specifications they want and loaded for delivery. It is all up to the receiving entity how much and of what type of additives they want in their fuel.

I figured as such. If a convenience store chain can get a Top Tier license then anyone can if they're willing to pay for it. However, Costco doesn't seem to be playing ball with them, and their process of metering additives underground at delivery seems to be unique.

Still - my understanding of Top Tier licensing is that it has to be a registered and tested additive package. Simply dumping in a higher concentration of the bulk additive that every other convenience store/supermarket/independent uses wouldn't meet their requirements. I'm not sure how QuikTrip does it.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Is there any evidence that the EPA mandated amount isn't sufficient to keep an engine operating efficiently?



YES. That is how Top Tier came to be. Top Tier evolved from BMW's long life tests where they measured valve deposits. Fuels that were tested to pass BMW's long life tests with no deposit build up were eventually what has become Top Tier.

So yes, there were tests, showing fuels with EPA minimum levels were leaving deposits on valves and fuels with higher levels of detergents were not.

The story seems to be that BMW was recommending certain brands by name in the 90s. Then after the EPA had their mandated level of cleaning, some of these fuel marketers were reducing their previously higher levels to just over the EPA min amounts.

 

[blackman777]

Monitoring *radio* communications (cellphone) is not the same thing as startpage.com. Radio is ridiculously easy to intercept. Internet hardwires are not. In order to see what searches I made on a foreign website, the NSA would have to break into the building & steal the server. That isn't allowed under EU law and could be considered an act of war. (And even if the NSA did break-into Startpage foreign headquarters, the server stores no data.)
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

...some fuel marketers were cutting back to those EPA mandated levels. The carmakers were getting warranty claims that they could trace to deposits.

At last some useful info. I had an old Dodge K-car that went 360,000 miles using whatever gasoline was the cheapest. Of course that was a very simple naturally-aspirated 90hp engine, which if built today would fail emissions' standards.

Modern engines are much more complex with fuel injection & direct injection. They can't use the same rotten fuel my old 80s-era car used. I'll be using Top Tier Gasoline from now on, just as I use top tier synthetic oil.

 

[blackman777]

On the flip side:

If I pay 20 cents extra (versus buying the cheap stuff at Pilot or truck stops), then I will eventually have wasted enough money I could put downpayment on another car (used). 200,000 miles/30mpg == 6666 gallons * 0.2 == $1333 premium

 

[Quattro Pete]

Or you could just buy a bottle of Techron once in a while.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
...some fuel marketers were cutting back to those EPA mandated levels. The carmakers were getting warranty claims that they could trace to deposits.

At last some useful info. I had an old Dodge K-car that went 360,000 miles using whatever gasoline was the cheapest. Of course that was a very simple naturally-aspirated 90hp engine, which if built today would fail emissions' standards.

Modern engines are much more complex with fuel injection & direct injection. They can't use the same rotten fuel my old 80s-era car used. I'll be using Top Tier Gasoline from now on, just as I use top tier synthetic oil.


I don't know if "Top Tier" is the be all and end all. It's a marketing scheme in addition to being promoted by carmakers tired of getting in vehicles for warranty claims. Someone who worked at a car dealer said that often their fix is to toss in a bottle of a Techron Concentrate equivalent (several carmakers actually sell a relabeled Techron) and have some low-paid employee drive it. A lot of people still use Red Line SI-1 in preventative concentrations even though they no longer recommend it specifically (or at least not in English). Fuel these days is a regulated commodity, and with the exception of some botique stuff like oxygenate-free, super premium, or race fuel - you're getting the same base fuel for the most part whether you buy from a name-brand like Chevron or from a local supermarket or Costco.

The "Top Tier" licensing requirements are very specific, and I'm not even sure that they're better or worse than what many other fuel marketers do. A fuel marketer could easily meet the theoretical standard without bowing to the requirement to pay the licensing fee and being locked into using a more expensive additive package where the manufacturer has paid for the testing. It was noted that BP/Amoco had an extremely high level of detergent additive in their fuel but chose not to participate until recently. Valero supposedly says they use the EPA minimum amount and then up it 20% - feeling that there are downsides to excessive additive levels on a regular basis. Costco is going their own way with their own system of equipment to dump specific additives automatically on-site.

I mean - how hard could it be? I'm sure most of these chemical companies know enough to formulate something that works fine without having to run expensive engine tests on every single variation that they sell.

 

[TrevorS]

While Techron is a fantastic product, I prefer to use top tier as opposed to relying on a once a year in tank cleaner.

The reason is that I want my combustion chamber, intake valves and injectors clean all the time rather than some of the time.

I've had significant issues build up in a few years when using the most convenient, cheapest and lowest detergent gas available, coupled with extremely short trips.

Now if you don't get issues due to better design and or driving pattern, then fine, you may not need anything or can get by with infrequent in tank dosing.

But for my situation, not using top tier would be like using non detergent oil and then doing an oil system flush at my oil change.

Btw, look up the Amsoil PI doc I posted. It shows some deposit levels and clean up results across different vehicles.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
While Techron is a fantastic product, I prefer to use top tier as opposed to relying on a once a year in tank cleaner.

The reason is that I want my combustion chamber, intake valves and injectors clean all the time rather than some of the time.

I've had significant issues build up in a few years when using the most convenient, cheapest and lowest detergent gas available, coupled with extremely short trips.

Now if you don't get issues due to better design and or driving pattern, then fine, you may not need anything or can get by with infrequent in tank dosing.

But for my situation, not using top tier would be like using non detergent oil and then doing an oil system flush at my oil change.

Btw, look up the Amsoil PI doc I posted. It shows some deposit levels and clean up results across different vehicles.

Would you consider the fuel that Costco is selling under the "Clean Power" moniker if you're a member? We need to understand that "Top Tier" a marketing name and not the only means to achieve fuel system cleanliness. Chevron had been selling a more than adequate product for years marketed as "Chevron with Techron". Various fuel marketers have variously sold products like "Mobil Detergent Gasoline", "76 with ProPower/ProClean", "Shell VPower", etc.

The Costco product is very attractive because their prices are rock bottom, their employees are almost universally better trained/helpful than the cashier at your average gas station, their turnover is possibly the fastest in the industry, and because they assure the customer that it's about 5 times the minimum EPA required level when Top Tier is anywhere from 2 to 3 times.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
While Techron is a fantastic product, I prefer to use top tier as opposed to relying on a once a year in tank cleaner.

I'd prefer to use gasoline that has a good cleaning add pack, whether it's top tier or not. And yes, using Techron would be the next best thing. I wrote it as an alternative in response to blackman's wanting to save up the money for a downpayment on a car.

 

[badtlc]

costco gas isnt any cheaper here and it has the kirkland additives.

 

[blackman777]

Well..... it's bad enough I have to add an ounce of Diesel Cetane Boost every tank. I feel little motivation to start adding some liquid to my gasoline car too.

 

[andrewg]

I use either a Top Tier gasoline in my area (Chevron, 76, or Shell) or I can go to my local Costco that is one of the listed stations (go to Costco.com) selling Clean Power gasoline (equivalent to a Top Tier). They apparently use five times the additives that the EPA recommends.
Also, once a year.....just before an oil change, I'll run a bottle of Chevron Techron through the tank.