Top Tier Gas a scam?

[Foxtrot08]

Actually, yes they do. If I am hauling fuel for Chevron, Esso, Petro Canada, Shell, they actually turn a key, in a special bank of switches, and a light comes on showing that pump is activated. Then that specific companies additives are injected along with the gas, as the truck fills up at the refinery. Last week, I saw a Chevron truck, at the Husky refinery in PG BC, with barrels of Techron, pumping the barrels, into the tank, for the Chevron gas being hauled from there.

Yeah. And when we pull X brand from Marathon Canton, none of that happens.

It’s different everywhere. That’s why I’m saying stop and think about the logistics.

You see things as one driver.

I see them as someone that pulls fuel from ~15? States. Under several different flags. And unbranded. That also, has a fuel additive company.

 

[kschachn]

Actually, yes they do. If I am hauling fuel for Chevron, Esso, Petro Canada, Shell, they actually turn a key, in a special bank of switches, and a light comes on showing that pump is activated. Then that specific companies additives are injected along with the gas, as the truck fills up at the refinery. Last week, I saw a Chevron truck, at the Husky refinery in PG BC, with barrels of Techron, pumping the barrels, into the tank, for the Chevron gas being hauled from there.

I would think there’d be penalties for not doing so.

 

[y_p_w]

I know that very well.

But stop and think about the logistics for a second.

ABC co buys 123 TT additive package.
DEF co buys 234 TT additive package.
XYZ co buys 687 non tt additive package.
Add in all the “branded” fuels out there. And their premium additive package. And then to have every separate additive, at every terminal. At all times.

… Do you really think they have a tank for every separate additive? Can you think of that logistics? Let alone the shear cost of getting it there, storing it, all the lines for injection?

Like seriously. Stop and think about the logistics of this for a moment.

Again, not to be a smart ass. But you’re trying to explain something to me that I know better than you. Because we are a massive fuel hauler, a massive fuel seller both wholesale and retail.

The logistics aren't that hard. Sounds like it should be, but it's not really. I believe those are additive tanks on the side.

https://www.colpipe.com/our-operations/terminals/

I remember someone posted the hand additive rate for Chevron Techron should there be a problem with the automated equipment. It was the exact same additive bottles, other than the minimum concentration would be 25% more for premium. But it was a rather blunt way of doing it. I think it was one bottle for up to 400 gallons, two for up to 800, etc. for premium. But for all other grades it was one bottle up to 500 gallons, two for 1000, etc. If the delivery was in between it could be a higher concentration.

 

[y_p_w]

I would think there’d be penalties for not doing so.

At least in the United States fuel haulers are common carriers who can be held liable for an inaccurate load. I've heard a few comment here that they were asked a few times to look the other way and refused.

 

[4wd]

I would think there’d be penalties for not doing so.

Talked to a store owner who said a QAQC guy randomly checks his gas for additive package tracer - (major brand) …

 

[Foxtrot08]

The logistics aren't that hard. Sounds like it should be, but it's not really. I believe those are additive tanks on the side.

https://www.colpipe.com/our-operations/terminals/

I remember someone posted the hand additive rate for Chevron Techron should there be a problem with the automated equipment. It was the exact same additive bottles, other than the minimum concentration would be 25% more for premium. But it was a rather blunt way of doing it. I think it was one bottle for up to 400 gallons, two for up to 800, etc. for premium. But for all other grades it was one bottle up to 500 gallons, two for 1000, etc. If the delivery was in between it could be a higher concentration.

The logistics are a lot harder than you think.

That’s why it’s typically left to being branded premium only that have their own additive tanks.

Now, why is it so complicated?

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/fuels1/ffars/web-gas.htm

Now, which Afton additive is it they have on hand? Or which innospec? Or BASF? Or Chevron?

They’re going to have limited options. Most of those options, are going to be on branded premium. As I’ve said from the start. And that’s assuming the brand, has a deal with the terminal system.

Case example:

I can pull Unbranded Citgo fuel in Ohio. Even though there’s no brand representation of Citgo, in Ohio on light ends.

In either case, this is the internet. You keep believing whatever you want. And… I’ll keep being in this business.

Also, normal concentration for fuel additive is ~1:1500 typically. So 1 gallon per 1500 gallons. But it specifically depends on the fuel and the targets you’re trying to get to. Also, some fuel simply doesn’t accept fuel additives. So it’s a waste of time.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Talked to a store owner who said a QAQC guy randomly checks his gas for additive package tracer - (major brand) …

Ah… now that’s a fun topic. But completely different thread. Co-op stores vs company owned… Vs even just brand licensed!

 

[y_p_w]

The logistics are a lot harder than you think.

That’s why it’s typically left to being branded premium only that have their own additive tanks.

Now, why is it so complicated?

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/fuels1/ffars/web-gas.htm

Now, which Afton additive is it they have on hand? Or which innospec? Or BASF? Or Chevron?

They’re going to have limited options. Most of those options, are going to be on branded premium. As I’ve said from the start. And that’s assuming the brand, has a deal with the terminal system.

Case example:

I can pull Unbranded Citgo fuel in Ohio. Even though there’s no brand representation of Citgo, in Ohio on light ends.

In either case, this is the internet. You keep believing whatever you want. And… I’ll keep being in this business.

Also, normal concentration for fuel additive is ~1:1500 typically. So 1 gallon per 1500 gallons. But it specifically depends on the fuel and the targets you’re trying to get to. Also, some fuel simply doesn’t accept fuel additives. So it’s a waste of time.

You’re the one making claims that this is somehow too complicated to implement. I don’t believe it particularly is.

The fuel is the fungible commodity. The makeup of the “proprietary” additive is a mystery to the consumer, but I’m sure there’s a long trail to follow in case of an audit.

 

[wemay]

No, it's not a scam. There are more detergents in TTG as has been proven on multiple occasions.

 

[Foxtrot08]

You’re the one making claims that this is somehow too complicated to implement. I don’t believe it particularly is.

The fuel is the fungible commodity. The makeup of the “proprietary” additive is a mystery to the consumer, but I’m sure there’s a long trail to follow in case of an audit.

Because I don’t think you understand the scale of the industry already. And as I linked, how many choices there are.

All while trying to work on very tight margins already.

And I’m not making claims. I’m stating facts. You might not like them, but it is what it is. You’re going to have branded premium additives, which, the brands pay to put in. Thus, the larger gap in premium fuel pricing. Then you’re going to have the everything else additive. Which, will be used in regular, unbranded, etc.

Having 100 different fuel additives isn’t logistically possible at every rack. Having 4 or so, is.

Edit:



Almost everyone uses the DTN network to buy wholesale / rack. Here’s a decent video overview of it.

We get a daily price sheet. That has all the racks. Branded, unbranded. Prices.

Here is a picture of a year or so ago. My info scrubbed from it. It’s a little more complex now because we have some additional source points for wholesale.

 

[Astro_Guy]

My top priority for fuel in my daily driver PHEV and the wife's hybrid is Ethanol free. Why? Beacuse they both can go months without visiting a gas station. Top Tier hasn't really entered my mind since moving these two vehicles to E0. I have two 20 liter Jerry jugs that I keep filled with 90 Octane E0 to fill the OPE and the 2017 Prius V.

 

[y_p_w]

Because I don’t think you understand the scale of the industry already. And as I linked, how many choices there are.

All while trying to work on very tight margins already.

And I’m not making claims. I’m stating facts. You might not like them, but it is what it is. You’re going to have branded premium additives, which, the brands pay to put in. Thus, the larger gap in premium fuel pricing. Then you’re going to have the everything else additive. Which, will be used in regular, unbranded, etc.

Having 100 different fuel additives isn’t logistically possible at every rack. Having 4 or so, is.

I never said that. I’ve acknowledged many times that fuel terminals have generic additives (often just one or two) that can be used for generic fuel. I don’t think anyone here has claimed that there are 100+ additives at every fuel terminal.

 

[Foxtrot08]

I never said that. I’ve acknowledged many times that fuel terminals have generic additives (often just one or two) that can be used for generic fuel. I don’t think anyone here has claimed that there are 100+ additives at every fuel terminal.

And that’s what I’ve been saying. I don’t know why you started debating it other wise?

My point is they’re going to sell a fuel. Whether it’s TT or not, is up to the station to claim it is, or not to worry about it.

That’s why “retailer” is a commercial participant. Not the terminal, or refiner with TT.

Thus, my initial point that wholesale or branded, the gas is going to be the same. It’s up to the retailer to claim its TT. Which, is marketing.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

My personal feeling if it has ethanol in it garbage.

 

[y_p_w]

And that’s what I’ve been saying. I don’t know why you started debating it other wise?

My point is they’re going to sell a fuel. Whether it’s TT or not, is up to the station to claim it is, or not to worry about it.

That’s why “retailer” is a commercial participant. Not the terminal, or refiner with TT.

Thus, my initial point that wholesale or branded, the gas is going to be the same. It’s up to the retailer to claim its TT. Which, is marketing.

Because you made it seem like there really wouldn't be multiple additive tanks at a terminal. In my area there are maybe 11 brands that I see on the Top Tier website. They include Chevron/Texaco and Exxon/Mobil, so that can mean one less additive tank at a terminal.

The retailers that claim it's Top Tier profess to meet the standard. Marketing or not, I don't doubt they say what they mean. It's a requirement for the brand, so whatever the station claims doesn't matter. It's baked into how they get fuel delivered that they meter in the proprietary additive.

 

[TimeFlies]

As far as I can tell, at the refinery I haul from frequently, there are 8 different possible additives, not hundreds. We don't even have dozens of branded gas stations, much less hundreds. I can think of 9 branded gas stations in the area, and then a few independents, which as far as I know from chatting with people who haul to them, they have no additives. Husky gas stations, have no additives either, nor does Co-OP gas. This one refinery, supplies all the gas, and diesel, minus aviation gas, to a large area around me. I am in central BC, a large province. This refinery supplies fuel east to the Alberta border, west to Prince Rupert, north to Fort St. John, and south to Cache Creek.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Husky gas stations, have no additives either, nor does Co-OP gas.

All gas must have some additive in the USA per FERC, and I assume Canada is similar? So is the additive in the base fuel by the time it gets there, and hence all the other additives we are discussing are additional - or are you saying these three generic fills get whatever is the standard / minimum additive?

Just trying to understand how all the puzzle pieces fit together?

 

[Wylie6G72]

I don't think it's a scam if the brands claims are actually true regarding the content of their gas. I find myself wondering every time I fill up, if some of these stations' premium gas would actually rate at 93 octane if it were tested. Would that just be blamed on an oversight on the part of the delivery guy?

 

[Foxtrot08]

Because you made it seem like there really wouldn't be multiple additive tanks at a terminal. In my area there are maybe 11 brands that I see on the Top Tier website. They include Chevron/Texaco and Exxon/Mobil, so that can mean one less additive tank at a terminal.

The retailers that claim it's Top Tier profess to meet the standard. Marketing or not, I don't doubt they say what they mean. It's a requirement for the brand, so whatever the station claims doesn't matter. It's baked into how they get fuel delivered that they meter in the proprietary additive.

The entire point of my post, was that there’s not going to be a ton of choices. And that wholesale rack fuel, is all the same. Regardless of TT marketing or not.

And again, what I said earlier. There’s no in field QC testing. You submit where you’re buying fuel from and get a sticker. Which, as I’ve already stated. Fuel changes dramatically. Let alone actually knowing where it’s coming from.

Thus what I said at the top, marketing. It works.

 

[TimeFlies]

All gas must have some additive in the USA per FERC, and I assume Canada is similar? So is the additive in the base fuel by the time it gets there, and hence all the other additives we are discussing are additional - or are you saying these three generic fills get whatever is the standard / minimum additive?

Just trying to understand how all the puzzle pieces fit together?

Yes, let me clarify, no additives on top of how it was made, and pumped into the tank farm. But they do not, at the time of truck loading, then add an extra chemical, for example techron. As the owner of cardlocks, I sell at them, clear and marked gas, clear and marked diesel, and DEF. Gasoline hauled to my cardlocks, does not have anything else added, post production at the refinery either. As I have limited tanks, and pumps, I also sell a limited number of products. If clear gas, it is only regular. Marked gas, is only premium. While not completely ethanol free, all the time, it is guaranteed to be less than 1%, they tell me it is really only from 0% - 0.2%. But because it could be more, for legal reasons, the stickers on my pumps state less than 1%. Thankfully we aren't known for growing corn here, so we are mostly void of ethanol.