Top Tier licensing requires that every grade at every branded station be Top Tier qualified. If your company is selling regular with non top tier qualified additives and amounts to Top Tier stations, your company is committing fraud.
Ed
Top Tier Gas a scam?
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Ed
I was thinking the same thing, and then posting about it on a public forum, is not wise.
Depends on whether they are the actual seller to the stations, or just transport - in which case it FOB.
I use BP 93 exclusively, and HOPE they follow the new Top Tier+ and add increased cleaning agents to BP 93.
How did you get fraud out of that post?
I’m seriously wondering.
Because I simply described branded premium additives. Which is where there’s marketing behind. Tri-clean, V-power, Ultimate, etc. Which, they market and generally are only available in premium fuel offerings.
Thus the exact statement “Branded additives which they pay to put in.”
Then you’re regular additive, which is used in… everything else.
Before you say anything about fraud, you should read. And understand clearly before you comment something like that in return.
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Branded means that they can legally sell it as that brand. Even though the underlying fuel is commodity grade. I remember when Valero didn't participate in Top Tier, someone managed to contact Valero, which verified that (at the time) their fuel deliveries were always supplied with whatever generic additive was available at the fuel terminal. But it was the totality, including that the station got the fuel through a contract with Valero that they could say they were selling Valero gasoline.
I've noticed you've mentioned fuel by brand name, like Citgo. But yeah - that's just a contract for delivery. I'm sure it's not the same as the contract requirements for a retail gas station - which may or may not include a "proprietary" additive. I've seen a lot of Top Tier participants that don't really give it a trade name. Arco certainly doesn't. A lot of the convenience store chains that license TT don't expound on it beyond just saying it's TT.
Why not?
If I see many people purchasing gas at a station, I can be certain that they turn fuel over in reasonable intervals.
In addition, it may be a real nice place to do business for a plethora of reasons (nice prices, nice workers, clean station, squeaky clean thrones, good coffee, etc.)
That's better than the scenario that one could encounter at a smaller and/or pricier station, like a local BP close to my home. Pricing is premium and I can go by that station, even at peak times and count the number of cars utilizing the station on one hand and have multiple fingers left over.
High volume is a data point, and one that is easy to observe.
That still doesn’t explain the mention of any fraudulent activities.
Which I’m, at best, bothered by.
If you don’t want someone posting & around who, is a true insider in the fuels and lubricants world, just say so. I can leave anytime. I do this on here for free.
I specifically said branded premium offerings. Again, what they market. They don’t have TV commercials for Shell regular gasoline. They have TV commercials for Shell V-Power. Which, is found as a premium offering.
Again, not saying that regular 87e10 isn’t TT or not, I’m just saying it will use a commodity additive. Not, their proprietary premium additive. That’s all.
And my entire argument, revolves around the fact that, regular branded and unbranded, use the same additive. It’s up to the retailer, to license it as TT or not. Unbranded premium, may indeed, contain the same additives that branded premium contains. TT or not.
I can think of 1 terminal I could possibly get fuel without additive. But, that terminal also sells transmix. So, there’s 0% chance I’d ever pull from there. And I’m not even sure it’s rebuilt after their fire.
As for legally being able to market it, as branded or not. Is a different contract. I can buy branded fuel - as I’ve already posted. On the wholesale side, I cannot market branded fuel at retail. On the retail side, I can market a certain brand of fuel.
So Bob’s service station, that’s unbranded. I can sell fuel to, that fuel may be Bp / Marathon / Exxon. But I can’t market it as, branded fuel.
On the branded retail side, it’s very confusing. The brand, makes the trades. And they tell us where to pick it up.
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I certainly hope that this is not the case, as Co-op fuel is on the Top Tier list for Canada.
The Top Tier hierarchy would not be pleased.
Federal regs don’t allow fuel to be delivered to a gas station without a suitable additive.
As far as your example goes, it seems to be counter to the claims of several major fuel retailers like Chevron. They claim it’s their proprietary Techron additive in all grades.
Pick the gasoline that’s right for your car. The unbeatable cleaning power of Techron is in every grade.
But then again, what's "proprietary" vs "generic" is a matter of what the consumer knows. Afton has noted that they sell the same gasoline additive that "scales" from EPA LAC to Top Tier depending on concentration.
Recommended Dosage
HiTEC® 6590 is EPA, LAC Final Rule and TOP TIER™ certified. Please contact
your Afton Chemical representative for specific recommendations
Yeah. Chevron is different. But Chevron is also the only one that owns their own fuel additive company. And they have a lot invested in it. It’s one reason why I haven’t specifically mentioned them.
I will also say, that Chevron rarely operates on trade - in the U.S. I cannot comment on Canada, as another poster. In the U.S. they tend to market where they have firm supply points from their own refineries. Whether it’s their own pipelines, refinery direct, or at controlled terminals. From what they’ve told me, it’s because of how they have everything siloed internally.
Now, onto the Afton link. It says EPA and top tier. Nothing I said disputes that. Even TTs website and application says the same. My point is, why would they market two different gasolines? At two different treat rates? When it adds more complexity. They can sell one fuel, one treat rate and be done. That way if a retailer is buying it and submitted it for TT approval, they can get it. Or it can just be sold as normal wholesale.
That retailer doesn’t need to be marathon branded. And as I already posted, it’s not like there’s options.
Also, Innospec Dynamico is the big player in gasoline additives, at least the last I was told. Which, given was earlier this year. And that market shifts a lot.
Afton does make the best diesel fuel additives. Which, we treat all our diesel with. Both summer and winter. Unless requested otherwise, on the wholesale side.
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You can search for my posts on this subject. I've specifically noted that for many companies, going to a chemical company and obtaining an additive that already has TT certification at a specific treat rate is all they really need to do. They don't need to reinvent the wheel when someone else has already done all the work with a turnkey solution.
But that's still "proprietary" since what they use is still considered a trade secret between the fuel marketer, fuel terminal, and chemical supplier.
Sunoco lists a ton of additives. It's generally assumed that BP's Invigorate additive is listed under BASF. But for others - it's certainly possible that they produce specific formulations for a customer. You seem to be muddying the waters by claiming somehow it's a different additive between grades, when it's typically marketed as just a higher concentration for premium. And there are a lot of fuel marketers participating in Top Tier that don't claim higher concentrations for premium.
I'm trying to understand what you think a fuel marketer might have to gain from using a different additive for different grades. If they've already paid for some super dooper custom solution, why not use it across the entire range? Just add more for the top end.
Interesting discussion .... but no, I don't believe Top Tier Gas is a scam at all.
Sunoco has several additives because they sell racing gas. Which, is a completely different topic. With different formulations and additives.
The only “mud” I can say I brought up. Is, simply put that Premium - meaning, premium fuel additives, in your 93e10 or equivalent, are proprietary. Specifically in branded, marketed, premium fuel. Where regular - meaning, 87e10, will be shared.
The reason is simply cost. That’s also been a point I’ve made the entire time. Regular 87e10 outsells premium by over 100 to 1. Saving ~1/2 cent on additive adds up over billions of gallons. Use the economy of scale for regular additive. Your premium, that you’re already commanding ~70 cents to $1 a gallon more for, you can afford the extra 2-3 cents for the proprietary additive.
This is why Chevron is different. All that goes to the same company, as they’re not buying it from innospec / Afton / etc.
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Chevron only owns 5 refineries, and not a lot of pipelines. So why couldn't a Chevron Station on the East Coast - I know there are several around Atlanta - just pull from whatever depot and spec whatever qty of oronite - which I presume would be pretty common everywhere? It would be functionally the same wouldn't it?
The statement I quoted contained no information that the additive used in the regular was a Top Tier approved additive.
To clarify: Does the regular that you sell to Top Tier retailers always contain an approved additive at the treat rate specified in the retailer's Top Tier License agreement? Yes or No.
Ed
Why would I answer your question? You’re clearly trolling.
Answer mine first. Where did I infer fraud at all? Otherwise, keep thoughts like that to yourself.
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Consistency. As I said, every fuel is different from every refinery.
Now, chevron could arrange a deal with kinder Morgan, or colonial, or someone. Ship their fuel on that pipeline, to a dedicated tank. And then ship Oronite fuel additive to that location. And it would be the same standards and consistency.
The other reason why there’s so many fuel additives. Is the shear number of fuel blends in the U.S.
There’s about ~30 different fuel blends in the U.S. which is another reason there’s so many different additives that are approved.
Shell says something different. Same proprietary additive at different treat rates. Taken from their V-Power Nitro+ FAQ:
I think you are confusing the marketing of the grade of fuel with the additive used. I personally know of a Chevron in Reno that was shut down and their franchise pulled when a QC spot check showed that they were not selling Chevron fuel(tracers in the additive). The majors take the use of their additive chemistry very seriously.
Ed
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