Too many VI modifiers a bad thing?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

According to a post made by Pablo, the oil AMSOIL markets as an SAE 30 (but I think the key here is that it isn't API approved) is actually a 10w30 with no VII's.


10W-30 with no viscosity index improvers would be a 10 weight oil.


Ummmm, no. It is a product consisting of base oils that make it fall within the range of a 30-weight when hot but also pass the cold temp performance requirements to obtain the 10W rating.

Why do you think it would be a "10 weight"? Which is a grade for PCMO's that doesn't even exist.....

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Why do you think it would be a "10 weight"? Which is a grade for PCMO's that doesn't even exist.....


Because it's a pumped up 10 weight, the same way as 5w30 is a pumped up 5 weight.

Take away the VII's and the engine is fried.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Why do you think it would be a "10 weight"? Which is a grade for PCMO's that doesn't even exist.....


Because it's a pumped up 10 weight, the same way as 5w30 is a pumped up 5 weight.

Take away the VII's and the engine is fried.



Ummm, no. Your fundamental understanding of Viscosity is SERIOUSLY flawed. Though this now explains why you like 10w30 so much.

the 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w, 20w....etc ratings are all cold performance measures. An oil doesn't have to be insanely thin to pass them, it simply needs to thicken less as the temperature drops.

Modern base stocks have naturally higher VI's than oils of the past, which means that they possess natural multi-grade characteristics. This means that you can put together a base oil blend that not only passes the requirements to be called a 30-weight oil when hot, but also passes the cold temperature requirements for 5W. This is how Redline's 5w30 is made, which is a 5w30 with no added VII's. It relies on the natural multi-weight characteristics of the base oils to meet both requirements.

Similarly, an oil like Mobil 1 0w-40 starts off as a blend of base stocks that render it somewhere in the 30-weight range (probably a 0w30 or 5w30) and some VII's and PPD's are added to make it a 0w-40. The latest iteration appears to start with a heavier base oil blend (upper 30's) as it doesn't tend to shear down into the 30-weight territory like its predecessor.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: blackman777
At the time (2000) they were the only company making xW-20 synthetic.
Mobil's first synthetic PCMO was a 20-weight and that was in the 1970's. They had a 0w-20 out ~2000 and before that a 5w-20. The 0w-20 briefly disappeared and then came back under the AFE moniker.
Yeah
....I did check Mobil, Pennzoil, and others because I wanted to use a name brand rather than an MLM brand (I had just lost a lot of money in the Amway MLM/scam). Unfortunately in 2000 I couldn't find anything other than Honda 0w-20 (natural) or Amsoil 5w-20 (synthetic) so I tried the amsoil.

 

[blackman777]

kschachn: It's actually AMSoil (the guy's initials followed by the word oil). But really: Who gives a frak? Stop correcting people. VII or VIM... who cares? Nobody hired you to be a SpellBot.

LOL
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
They were not making the only 20 wt synthetic. There were lots of racing oils that did, especially those targeted towards qualifying and/or drag racing.

Yeah I looked at Redline's SAE20 back in 2000, but they advised "racing oils should NOT be used in street cars". So Amsoil was the only synthetic I could find for my 2000 Honda.
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
https://www.oronite.com/paratone/shearrates.aspx

All things equal I'll take an oil without VIIs. Temporary shear, permanent shear, deposits, all bad things.

Good to know.
Thanks

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Because 10w30 a pumped up 10 weight..... Take away the VII's and the engine is fried.

Your statement is true for natural oils, which are SAE 10 oils with viscosity modifiers to make it "thicken" to 30 as it heats up. Without the VIIs it would be a 10W-10 oil.

But synthetic oils don't follow the properties of natural oils. It is possible for a synthetic oil to act like a 10w30 without any VIIs added to it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Because 10w30 a pumped up 10 weight..... Take away the VII's and the engine is fried.

Your statement is true for natural oils, which are SAE 10 oils with viscosity modifiers to make it "thicken" to 30 as it heats up. Without the VIIs it would be a 10W-10 oil.

But synthetic oils don't follow the properties of natural oils. It is possible for a synthetic oil to act like a 10w30 without any VIIs added to it.


Actually the bases used for conventional oils are also higher VI than they were back in the day and again, SAE 10 (which isn't an actual PCMO grade) does not equal 10W, they are completely different measures.

Here's a chart for reference:

So while yes, conventional oils will, in general have more VII's to achieve their multi-visc characteristics, they are blended in the same manner as synthetic oils.

I'm sure Molakule could give us a more concise breakdown of the actual process but essentially you get as close as you can with your base oil blend and then use VII's and PPD's to tweak it to where it needs to be.

 

[y_p_w]

There are some "SAE 10W" oils on the market. With an API SB donut even.

http://eolcs.api.org/brandSearchResults.aspx?mode=grade&q=10W

http://www.amazon.com/Kendall-1042767-Non-Detergent-SAE-Motor/dp/B004RNSUA8

 

[Solarent]

Here is a post from a previous thread:

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Creating a 5W30 -
The target viscosity for a 5W30 oil requires:
1 - KV@100C of 9.3-12.5 cSt
2 - A max Cold Cranking Viscosity of max. 6600 cP @ -30C and Cold Pumping viscosity of max. 60 000 cP @ -35 C

To reach these targets: formulators will mix 2-3 base oils with KV@100C ranging from 4-8.5 cSt (about 50% of the formula will likely be in the 6 cSt range) with the correct blend of additives to reach the final target performance at the required temperatures.

Because these targets are a range, there is plenty of room to create multiple oils with many Viscosity Indexes, depending on what ratios are used. Generally, a higher concentration the thinner the base oils (which are used to improve low temperature performance), requires an increase in concentration of VII's to ensure proper viscosity at operating temperature.

**You may notice that in the range of base oils, ALL of them are lower then the target 9.3-12.5 cSt. This is because the operational viscosity of most oils - conventionals and synthetics rely heavily on VII's (between 5-10% of the formula) to reach the necessary targets while maintaining the proper cold temperature performance.


As you can see, VII's are a critical component of most engine oils. While the type and function of VM (Viscosity Modifiers) may vary between formulations they all use something to allow a base oil which meets the necessary low temp requirements to thin out less as the temperature increases. Balancing the shear rates and deposit issues related to the use of VII's is part of what makes it so important to use the right combination of additives and base oils in the finished formula.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Here is a post from a previous thread:

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Creating a 5W30 -
The target viscosity for a 5W30 oil requires:
1 - KV@100C of 9.3-12.5 cSt
2 - A max Cold Cranking Viscosity of max. 6600 cP @ -30C and Cold Pumping viscosity of max. 60 000 cP @ -35 C

To reach these targets: formulators will mix 2-3 base oils with KV@100C ranging from 4-8.5 cSt (about 50% of the formula will likely be in the 6 cSt range) with the correct blend of additives to reach the final target performance at the required temperatures.

Because these targets are a range, there is plenty of room to create multiple oils with many Viscosity Indexes, depending on what ratios are used. Generally, a higher concentration the thinner the base oils (which are used to improve low temperature performance), requires an increase in concentration of VII's to ensure proper viscosity at operating temperature.

**You may notice that in the range of base oils, ALL of them are lower then the target 9.3-12.5 cSt. This is because the operational viscosity of most oils - conventionals and synthetics rely heavily on VII's (between 5-10% of the formula) to reach the necessary targets while maintaining the proper cold temperature performance.


As you can see, VII's are a critical component of most engine oils. While the type and function of VM (Viscosity Modifiers) may vary between formulations they all use something to allow a base oil which meets the necessary low temp requirements to thin out less as the temperature increases. Balancing the shear rates and deposit issues related to the use of VII's is part of what makes it so important to use the right combination of additives and base oils in the finished formula.


Excellent summation Solarent

So the combo you mocked-up there would be somewhere in the xW-20 range before the VII's were added then, correct?

Also useful information here:

Exxon's Group II base oil list (their EHC series):
http://www.exxonmobil.com/USA-English/Basestocks/PDS/GLXXENBSKEMEHC.aspx

Which have base oils ranging from 4.4cSt to 12.0cSt and VI's from 95-119.

Then there is the SpectraSyn Elite mPAO series (which are very heavy... not sure how applicable they would be to a PCMO):
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...datasheets.aspx

Their Synestic AN series:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...roductsservices

Available in 4.7cSt and 12.4cSt. With VI's of 65 and 105 respectively.


SpectraSyn Lo-VIS PAO:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...roductsservices

Available in a very broad range of viscosities. The SpectraSyn 8 has a VI of 138, 10 has a VI of 136 and they all have very low pour points.

SpectraSyn Plus PAO:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...roductsservices

With viscosities of 3.6, 3.9 and 5.9 and VI's of 117, 122 and 143 respectively.


All of these products are listed on this page:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-English/productsservices/synthetic-basestocks.aspx

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Excellent summation Solarent

So the combo you mocked-up there would be somewhere in the xW-20 range before the VII's were added then, correct?


It's not quite that simple, but yes. If you are making a 5W20 or a 0W20, then instead of 50% of the formula being in the 6cSt range, the ratios might be different. Typically a xW20 and a xW30 will have similar amounts of VII's in them. One reason for this is because formulators optimize the number of different base oils they use across a wide range of products - this has to do with the economics of oil manufacturing, including storage space and blending capacities.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Then there is the SpectraSyn Elite mPAO series (which are very heavy... not sure how applicable they would be to a PCMO):
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...datasheets.aspx


XOM recommends these as VM's for boosting HTHS @ 150, adding a relatively small amount of mPAO can have a significant impact on HTHS.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Their Synestic AN series:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...roductsservices

Available in 4.7cSt and 12.4cSt. With VI's of 65 and 105 respectively.

There are many reasons to use the AN series, most of which has very little to do with viscosity performance.

Wouldn't it be nice if all oils were made with the PAO's from XOM? Too bad they aren't as readily available as one would like. Even XOM affiliate blenders sometimes have a hard time getting some of them. Thank goodness for the API base oil interchange rules. I personally have a slight bias towards PetroCanada's base oils.

 

[OVERKILL]

LOL, isn't that because you work for PC?

 

[Solarent]

Haha. No I don't work for them. But my company does have a long time relationship working with them, and their quality and availability of base oils is very good.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Haha. No I don't work for them. But my company does have a long time relationship working with them, and their quality and availability of base oils is very good.


Ahhh, OK, I figured there was at least some sort of relationship there

What's your opinion on their ultra pure Group III?

 

[Solarent]

As good as PAO in many cases. For most engine oils, I am happy to see good quality Group III bases. Most people don't realize that PC is one of the only producer of high quality Group III oils in North America - most other manufacturers are importing them from other countries (like Shell's GTL which comes from the Pearl plant in Qatar)

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
high quality Group III oils in North America - most other manufacturers are importing them from other countries (like Shell's GTL which comes from the Pearl plant in Qatar)


How about S-K in Korea.
I still contend that F-T GTL is not quite GrIII, primarily due to it's production being crude-oil independent. Instead it's molecularly built from CH4, not much unlike PAO is derived from C2H4.

 

[Shannow]

I'd go GTL as synthetic personally too...

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: blackman777
At the time (2000) they were the only company making xW-20 synthetic.


Mobil's first synthetic PCMO was a 20-weight and that was in the 1970's. They had a 0w-20 out ~2000 and before that a 5w-20. The 0w-20 briefly disappeared and then came back under the AFE moniker.


+1. As you know I used Mobil 1 5w20 in 1978.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: blackman777
At the time (2000) they were the only company making xW-20 synthetic.


Mobil's first synthetic PCMO was a 20-weight and that was in the 1970's. They had a 0w-20 out ~2000 and before that a 5w-20. The 0w-20 briefly disappeared and then came back under the AFE moniker.


+1. As you know I used Mobil 1 5w20 in 1978.


Yessir, and I bought it in the 90's, LOL!

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: blackman777
At the time (2000) they were the only company making xW-20 synthetic.


Mobil's first synthetic PCMO was a 20-weight and that was in the 1970's. They had a 0w-20 out ~2000 and before that a 5w-20. The 0w-20 briefly disappeared and then came back under the AFE moniker.

The 0W-20 was apparently the factory fill in several Honda hybrids like the Insight and Civic Hybrid.