Toilet paper bypass filter

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I was looking at toilet paper bypass filters and found this write up that was interesting. Basically it states how the frantz filter got started because VW engines were dying after 300 miles in desert race.

Voted best answer, is the post i am talking about.

http://answers.edmunds.com/question-Who-sells-toilet-paper-oil-filters-these-days-49875.aspx

The toilet paper oil filter removed everything above 0.5 microns and the engine survived the race.

The only thing that worries me about this is it will probably filter out the Lubra Moly MOS2 i like to use.

I found this letter posted in the passenger car motor oil section.

Here we go...I emailed the company about the size of the mos2 particles:

thank you very much for your mail, dtd. 28th July 2010 and for your interest in Lubro

Moly products.

The size of the MoS2 particles is between 0,2 and 0,5 µm. A pore of an oil filter has

normal a size of 35 µm and so more than the most of the MoS2 particles are more than

100 times smaller as an oil filter pore.

If you have any more question, contact us again!

With best regards from Ulm/Germany

i.A.
Dietmar Schmid

LIQUI MOLY GmbH
Anwendungstechnik/Application Engineering
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4
D-89081 Ulm-Lehr
 
The Frantz system is beautifully simple and superbly efficient and cheap.
Just a little bit messy when changing the element, so you've got to work as clean as possible.
If you change elements/toilet rolls regularly (I think they recommend every 1000 Kms), the additive pack is constantly replenished.
 
$215 for the kit, not including installation. Plus you have to mess with it every 600 miles, including adding a quart of oil to replace that lost in the old roll? Let's see, I go about 10,000 miles in my ECHO between oil changes, that would be what, 15 quarts of makeup oil. About $70 worth of M1 @ Walmart. Plus the cost of TP.

What about all that oil I'm putting in the trash with the old rolls?

Heh, no thanks. What's next, a tampon cabin filter? Diaper air filters?

Originally Posted By: Ducman
The Frantz system is beautifully simple and superbly efficient and cheap.
Just a little bit messy when changing the element, so you've got to work as clean as possible.
If you change elements/toilet rolls regularly (I think they recommend every 1000 Kms), the additive pack is constantly replenished.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducman
If you change elements/toilet rolls regularly, the additive pack is constantly replenished.

How does it do that?
 
Because you are adding a quart (or so) of fresh oil to replace that which is thrown out with the saturated roll.

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: Ducman
If you change elements/toilet rolls regularly, the additive pack is constantly replenished.

How does it do that?
 
Honestly, my biggest concern would be that little bits of paper would come off during operation, and over time could clog oil passages. If this does happen who would be responsible?

I am never an advocate for using something for which it was not designed. I don't care whether it is tools or toilet paper. I trust Champ Labs (or even Honeywell) a lot more to design a proper engine oil filtering element than I do Scott Tissue. I'm sure they make fine toilet paper but automotive oil filters??

Again, no thanks.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducman

If you change elements/toilet rolls regularly (I think they recommend every 1000 Kms), the additive pack is constantly replenished.


Is that 1000 km recommendation for gas engines? I've seen more like 2500 miles / 4023 km recommended for use in diesel engine applications.

Mike
 
I looked on their website and the recommended replacement interval is 3000 miles for a gasoline engine.

That mitigates my earlier scenario a bit but still I stand on the aversion to using a toilet paper roll to filter my engine oil. I'd sleep a whole lot better at night with an OCD on my car than a roll of toilet paper...

Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
Originally Posted By: Ducman

If you change elements/toilet rolls regularly (I think they recommend every 1000 Kms), the additive pack is constantly replenished.


Is that 1000 km recommendation for gas engines? I've seen more like 2500 miles / 4023 km recommended for use in diesel engine applications.

Mike
 
kschachn, that's a very common viewpoint--an unfounded one, but common nonetheless. The paper gets compressed in the housing and none "floats around" in the engine.

You sleep better with your OCD and I'll sleep better with my TP and paper towel roll filters. To each his own.
 
Mike, how is that unfounded? Even if you use the TP that is recommended, there's nothing to stop someone from using a roll of who-knows-what they swiped from work. Or, what if the Scott tissue company decides that they are going to change their paper formula? You have no way to predict how that will affect the filtering properties. After all, Scott tissue isn't considering engine oil filtering properties when they are reformulating their paper.

How are you sure it isn't floating around? And who is going to take responsibility for it if it does? Scott tissue? No way. I think an aversion to using a roll of toilet paper I bought at the grocery store to filter my engine's oil is quite founded.

My other question is "why"? What's wrong with an M1, Purolator, Toyota OEM, Hengst or Mann filter that I need to fix with toilet paper? Why spend the money for the housing and the three quarts or so of makeup oil? What is my problem that this addresses?

FWIW I don't use OCDs on my cars but I only said I would sleep better.

Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
kschachn, that's a very common viewpoint--an unfounded one, but common nonetheless. The paper gets compressed in the housing and none "floats around" in the engine.

You sleep better with your OCD and I'll sleep better with my TP and paper towel roll filters. To each his own.
 
Hi,
There are a number of things to consider when fitting a by-pass or supplementary filter to any engine

Perhaps one not often mentioned is flow (capacity of the oil pump), others include system behaviour at low temperature, low and high oil pressures

Most private users will not derive any significant benefit at all!
 
I agree. I suspect (without any real facts) that oil filters are overrated. For example, despite all the rants about the OCD (and despite the fact that I don't use them myself) they may be quite adequate for most uses. And despite all the discussion about the low filtering efficiencies of the Denso/Toyota and Honda filters, that may be of little to no consequence. Oil filters on passenger cars although important, may be a whole lot less important than many of us think they are.

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
There are a number of things to consider when fitting a by-pass or supplementary filter to any engine

Perhaps one not often mentioned is flow (capacity of the oil pump), others include system behavior at low temperature, low and high oil pressures

Most private users will not derive any significant benefit at all!
 
I am highly skeptical of a claim that Frantz removes "everything above 0.5 microns." I hope nobody here is taking that as gospel. Most importantly, the source of the quote is not what I would call reliable. Some "guy" on a post who "claims" some VW mag in the '60s did it. So far, I have not seen ANY credible sources or testing on Frantz efficiency that give us much of an indication of their actual performance.... good or bad.

I not against TP filters or bypass at all, but the Frantz thing seems to be based more on some widespread "belief" that it's great versus anything concrete. I admit to being bothered by that, which is why I chime in most times when the subject comes up. I promise that I will shut up or join the chorus if someone can produce credible (by a reasonably objective, scientific standard) test results.

FYI, I am using bypass on two of my trucks, Racor ABS 3 um absolute units that are very similar in operation to the Frantz. The difference is that the paper is engineered for filtration purposes and rolled in such a way to create a specific flow, efficiency and capacity. In other words, you know that what you install in there will deliver a specific effect.

With a TP filter, you might get great performance from one roll and lousy from another but you really don't know exactly what you are getting either way because you can't rate the efficiency of a roll of toilet paper before you stuff it into the canister.

Going back to that supposed test in the VW magazine, if that's a real deal you would want to know specifically what brand and type of paper they used because that would be key. As widespread as the Frantz has been for so long, it seems incomprehensible to me that there isn't just a ton of test data and a lot of specific advice on which paper produces the best efficiency.

I will agree with the point that someone will likely make that any bypass is better than none. Thing is, for all anyone knows, the efficiency is no better than the FF filter that's already in there and maybe worse than some of the top dollar premium full-flows you can buy.

As to bypass filtration itself, I look at it as an oil life extender, not so much an engine life extender. The reduction of engine wear via filtration is on a curve, a curve that gets very shallow below a certain threshold of oil cleanliness. The flattening of the curve seems to start at absolute filtration near 35um. We have no real world tests (that I know of) that really show the difference in wear at points in that flat part of the curve. By "real world" I do not include those accelerated tests where engines are run on a dyno and fed large amounts (pounds) of contaminants and they measure how fast the engine wears out with different levels of filtration. Those test only serve to show how high a contamination level the engine can withstand.

In the real world of light duty stuff, what you and I drive mostly, contamination inputs are very low. A lightly stressed gas engine produces about 2 ppm of iron per 1000 miles. So in 10K miles, it has gained 20 ppm of iron. That's 20 PARTS PER MILLION, essentially nothing and well below any engine manufacturer's caution thresholds, some of which run as high as 150 ppm or greater. The contamination levels of a lightly stressed engine with few external contamination inputs (these inputs come mostly from faulty air filtration or crankcase sealing), the need for bypass is greatly reduced if not eliminated because the contamination levels of the oil never reach a dangerous level and the difference in wear between "clean oil" and "really clean oil" is not much. As a result, looking at it strictly from a financial POV, bypass doesn't pay for itself from the engine wear perspective in the short run or for easily run engines in clean environments. They pay off best with engine are are worked hard, long, long OCIs and/or with a high rate external contamination (e.g.HD engines, worked hard in dirty environments with spotty maintenance).

The Frantz and other similar setups were viable for everyday owners back in the era when oil wasn't so great, air filters were only 85 percent efficient, full flow oil filters (if they even had a filter or a full flow filter) were doing good to break the 50um absolute barrier, and engines shed metal like mad from flat tappets, Morse chains, marginal metallurgy and so-so machining (versus todays's standards on those things). All that contributed to very much higher levels of wear metal in the oils and the 3K OCI was as much based on these contamination levels as it was the actual condition of the oil. You could see a substantial benefit with a Frantz in those days (even if the absolute efficiency was only 35 um or so) because the contamination inputs were so high. Most of todays engines produce only a fraction of that contamination. There are a few exceptions yet, and the old timers are still on the road, but you can see the differences in contamination if you start comparing modern engine UOA with old ones. Moderr oils can really help an old engine wear better but even given the same oil, an older engine will shed more metal than a modern one.

Bypass is a great oil life extender, so if you plan to run long OCIs, 15K and up, the bypass can make itself financially viable from that angle if you plan to keep your vehicle long term.

I am nearing the end of a 2+ year, 15K OCI on conventional 10W30 on my truck for which a bypass system has been installed for 10K of those miles. I tested the oil at 10K and it was in great shape... though that is no feat in itself really because you will see it's done quite regularly and successfully without bypass if you peruse the UOA section.
 
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Even if you had that information it would be worthless. That rated the filtering properties of the TP at the time of the test. How do you know they make the TP the exact same way today? You don't, and that is the problem. TP manufacturers make TP IAW TP criteria, not oil filtering. And when they change (which they do) it would alter the filtering ability one way or the other.

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
With a TP filter, you might get great performance from one roll and lousy from another but you really don't know exactly what you are getting either way because you can't rate the efficiency of a roll of toilet paper before you stuff it into the canister.

Going back to that supposed test in the VW magazine, if that's a real deal you would want to know specifically what brand and type of paper they used because that would be key. As widespread as the Frantz has been for so long, it seems incomprehensible to me that there isn't just a ton of test data and a lot of specific advice on which paper produces the best efficiency.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even if you had that information it would be worthless. That rated the filtering properties of the TP at the time of the test. How do you know they make the TP the exact same way today? You don't, and that is the problem. TP manufacturers make TP IAW TP criteria, not oil filtering. And when they change (which they do) it would alter the filtering ability one way or the other.



Yep, likely very true. My comment was only for putting things in context more than sending people out to look for '60's era TP ( : < ).
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Mike, how is that unfounded?


It's unfounded because it's a statement you made and all you had to back it up was simple opinion about how you believe it works. If I say "that doesn't work simply because I believe it doesn't" which is essentially what you're saying here, that's an unfounded statement.


Originally Posted By: kschachn

Even if you use the TP that is recommended, there's nothing to stop someone from using a roll of who-knows-what they swiped from work.


Sure there is. Nobody changes filters on my truck but me.


Originally Posted By: kschachn

How are you sure it isn't floating around?


My oil analysis reports. The fact that when I change out the old element it isn't a half-dissolved pile of mush.

Originally Posted By: kschachn

And who is going to take responsibility for it if it does?


Obviously that would be me since I'm the one who decided to install it on my engine.


Originally Posted By: kschachn

My other question is "why"? What's wrong with an M1, Purolator, Toyota OEM, Hengst or Mann filter that I need to fix with toilet paper?


Absolutely nothing--they're all good from what little I know about them. Nobody's trying to convince you to use a Frantz instead of one of the many other bypass filter systems. I'm not sure where you got the idea that's what was happening here.

My whole point with my response that your opinion on TP bypass filters was a common yet unfounded one was that we hear that all the time, but almost always from people who know nothing about them. First it's always "A roll of TP?!? that's *crazy*!" and then comes the whole slew of bad toilet jokes.

Mike
 
Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Mike, how is that unfounded?


It's unfounded because it's a statement you made and all you had to back it up was simple opinion about how you believe it works. If I say "that doesn't work simply because I believe it doesn't" which is essentially what you're saying here, that's an unfounded statement.


Originally Posted By: kschachn

Even if you use the TP that is recommended, there's nothing to stop someone from using a roll of who-knows-what they swiped from work.


Sure there is. Nobody changes filters on my truck but me.


Originally Posted By: kschachn

How are you sure it isn't floating around?


My oil analysis reports. The fact that when I change out the old element it isn't a half-dissolved pile of mush.

Originally Posted By: kschachn

And who is going to take responsibility for it if it does?


Obviously that would be me since I'm the one who decided to install it on my engine.


Originally Posted By: kschachn

My other question is "why"? What's wrong with an M1, Purolator, Toyota OEM, Hengst or Mann filter that I need to fix with toilet paper?


Absolutely nothing--they're all good from what little I know about them. Nobody's trying to convince you to use a Frantz instead of one of the many other bypass filter systems. I'm not sure where you got the idea that's what was happening here.

My whole point with my response that your opinion on TP bypass filters was a common yet unfounded one was that we hear that all the time, but almost always from people who know nothing about them. First it's always "A roll of TP?!? that's *crazy*!" and then comes the whole slew of bad toilet jokes.

Mike


Have you posted any UOA? I'd be interested to see.
PS- I just looked and all your 44 posts are in this forum, so I rephrase... will you post your UOAs? Again, I am genuinely interested to see them. Curious what they look like vs non-bypass and compared to other bypass.

Do you have any efficiency data?
 
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Well, OK but I gave you reasons. Do you have any hard data that the TP filter is "better"?

And I don't think the "TP jokes" are unfounded. Come on, you are using something for which it was clearly not designed. That opens you up to whatever criticism may come your way. In some respects it would be better if the Frantz used coffee filters since at least that is filter paper that is designed to remove particulate matter from liquids, much like laboratory filter paper. Criticizing you for using a roll of toilet paper to filter your engine's oil is reasonable. You don't agree since you are convinced it is fine to do so, but the issue is that TP is not a filtering medium even when used as designed.

Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Mike, how is that unfounded?

It's unfounded because it's a statement you made and all you had to back it up was simple opinion about how you believe it works.

My whole point with my response that your opinion on TP bypass filters was a common yet unfounded one was that we hear that all the time, but almost always from people who know nothing about them. First it's always "A roll of TP?!? that's *crazy*!" and then comes the whole slew of bad toilet jokes.

Mike
 
Quote:
Have you posted any UOA? I'd be interested to see.
PS- I just looked and all your 44 posts are in this forum, so I rephrase... will you post your UOAs? Again, I am genuinely interested to see them. Curious what they look like vs non-bypass and compared to other bypass.

Do you have any efficiency data?


No data other than my analysis reports--and you're right, I don't think I've posted any.

To clarify in the context of this thread, I'm not using a Frantz--I've got a GCF O-1 installed on my truck. I do have a Motorguard using TP elements, but that's for coolant.

Mike
 
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