Thanks Doug, I learn something new everyday. Do the US Automakers use that process? The US engines are what I'm most familiar with.
To soon to dump factory fill?
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Hi,
demarpaint - I simply don't know about your "big three" and their current engine technologies. I expect some engine families will use linerless blocks
demarpaint - I simply don't know about your "big three" and their current engine technologies. I expect some engine families will use linerless blocks
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Honda and other manufactures recommend strongly against using the old fashion thinking of changing oil out at 500 or 1000 miles. UOAa on the factory fills shows high levels of Moly and other stuff in the oil. Either the extra additives are added directly to the oil or put on during assembly and it migrates into the oil for addition protection. If the factory recommends XXX miles before the first change then I will never go to less than 1/2 of that. Too many self appointed experts dishing out information as fact. The oil filter is there to keep out any stray damaging bits.
Metallurgy is metallurgy, doesn't matter if its in a Honda or a Cat diesel. The critical part of break-in that requires those additives is *over* after about half an hour at 2000 RPM. After that point, any value in having those additives around is more than negated by all the manufacturing debris and break-in debris in the oil. Filters can catch it, but we all know that oil filters spend a lot of time in bypass mode and can't trap everything.
Truthfully, have you ever seen any *documentation* that says the factory oil should be left in a specified time? I haven't. The machinist I use specializes in Mopar and Honda engines, and he recommends an early oil and filter change on both types. I've seen plenty of manufacturers' recommendations that say you "don't need" to change the oil soon. That's different than saying you "shouldn't." Saying you "don't need" to makes their engine sound better than one that "needs" an oil change at 300 miles, so of course they won't say you "need" to.
Honda and other manufactures recommend strongly against using the old fashion thinking of changing oil out at 500 or 1000 miles. UOAa on the factory fills shows high levels of Moly and other stuff in the oil. Either the extra additives are added directly to the oil or put on during assembly and it migrates into the oil for addition protection. If the factory recommends XXX miles before the first change then I will never go to less than 1/2 of that. Too many self appointed experts dishing out information as fact. The oil filter is there to keep out any stray damaging bits.
Metallurgy is metallurgy, doesn't matter if its in a Honda or a Cat diesel. The critical part of break-in that requires those additives is *over* after about half an hour at 2000 RPM. After that point, any value in having those additives around is more than negated by all the manufacturing debris and break-in debris in the oil. Filters can catch it, but we all know that oil filters spend a lot of time in bypass mode and can't trap everything.
Truthfully, have you ever seen any *documentation* that says the factory oil should be left in a specified time? I haven't. The machinist I use specializes in Mopar and Honda engines, and he recommends an early oil and filter change on both types. I've seen plenty of manufacturers' recommendations that say you "don't need" to change the oil soon. That's different than saying you "shouldn't." Saying you "don't need" to makes their engine sound better than one that "needs" an oil change at 300 miles, so of course they won't say you "need" to.
Hi,
440Magnum - You said this:
"Metallurgy is metallurgy, doesn't matter if its in a Honda or a Cat diesel. The critical part of break-in that requires those additives is *over* after about half an hour at 2000 RPM. After that point, any value in having those additives around is more than negated by all the manufacturing debris and break-in debris in the oil. Filters can catch it, but we all know that oil filters spend a lot of time in bypass mode and can't trap everything."
Parts of your comment can be disputed but I'm not about to do that. It would probably involve a convoluted debate
Generalising is always risky. For example, some cases engines are now subjected to a "cold test" on line. This does not involve using fuel or coolant. The lubricant used is recycled - the engine is clean!
Some engines suffer badly when the Manufacturer's recommended lubricants are not used for a considerable period of time. Some diesel engines have such hard ring packs that they may take up to 100k miles to finally settle down
Many heavy diesels have suffered from roller rocker issues (insufficient friction to spin etc) when incorrect lubricants are used in the first period of their lives. In some cases "fortified" initial fill lubricants safeguard against the likes of these issues
Many of my engines were still "unstable" at up to 45k miles!
IMO it is best to meticulously follow what is recommended by the Manufacturers in regards dumping the factory fill!
440Magnum - You said this:
"Metallurgy is metallurgy, doesn't matter if its in a Honda or a Cat diesel. The critical part of break-in that requires those additives is *over* after about half an hour at 2000 RPM. After that point, any value in having those additives around is more than negated by all the manufacturing debris and break-in debris in the oil. Filters can catch it, but we all know that oil filters spend a lot of time in bypass mode and can't trap everything."
Parts of your comment can be disputed but I'm not about to do that. It would probably involve a convoluted debate
Generalising is always risky. For example, some cases engines are now subjected to a "cold test" on line. This does not involve using fuel or coolant. The lubricant used is recycled - the engine is clean!
Some engines suffer badly when the Manufacturer's recommended lubricants are not used for a considerable period of time. Some diesel engines have such hard ring packs that they may take up to 100k miles to finally settle down
Many heavy diesels have suffered from roller rocker issues (insufficient friction to spin etc) when incorrect lubricants are used in the first period of their lives. In some cases "fortified" initial fill lubricants safeguard against the likes of these issues
Many of my engines were still "unstable" at up to 45k miles!
IMO it is best to meticulously follow what is recommended by the Manufacturers in regards dumping the factory fill!
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
...
Truthfully, have you ever seen any *documentation* that says the factory oil should be left in a specified time? I haven't...
Quote from Honda Service Advisory Bulletin (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF, page 4)
"What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the engine until the first scheduled maintenance interval.
...
Truthfully, have you ever seen any *documentation* that says the factory oil should be left in a specified time? I haven't...
Quote from Honda Service Advisory Bulletin (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF, page 4)
"What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the engine until the first scheduled maintenance interval.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Quote from Honda Service Advisory Bulletin (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF, page 4)
"What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the engine until the first scheduled maintenance interval.
I wonder if that is because of problems when some people switch to synthetic too soon, or whether it also applies to conventional oil. The problem is don't know what the customer is going to put in the crankcase if they say it is OK to dump early.
Quote from Honda Service Advisory Bulletin (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF, page 4)
"What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the engine until the first scheduled maintenance interval.
I wonder if that is because of problems when some people switch to synthetic too soon, or whether it also applies to conventional oil. The problem is don't know what the customer is going to put in the crankcase if they say it is OK to dump early.
That was the Honda statement I was referring to in my previous reply. Honda is not the only manufacture that takes the FF seriously. Thank you Doug H. for your input. Ed
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
...
Truthfully, have you ever seen any *documentation* that says the factory oil should be left in a specified time? I haven't...
Quote from Honda Service Advisory Bulletin (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF, page 4)
"What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the engine until the first scheduled maintenance interval.
Thanks for the documentation. Honda definitely goes against the industry norms in many ways.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
...
Truthfully, have you ever seen any *documentation* that says the factory oil should be left in a specified time? I haven't...
Quote from Honda Service Advisory Bulletin (http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF, page 4)
"What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the engine until the first scheduled maintenance interval.
Thanks for the documentation. Honda definitely goes against the industry norms in many ways.
What's good for a Honda engine might not be good for another brand of engine. I contacted Chrysler and also read that they don't use any special oils in their new engines. Armed with that info the factory oil came out of my new Jeep after 500 miles. I did the same with all the new Fords I've owned over the years w/o any problems. If I ever own a new Honda I'll leave the factory fill in as per their recommendation.
If a manufacturer specifically states to leave the factory oil in and not change it out early, I'd follow the recommendation, if nothing is said, I'd get it out early. JMO
If a manufacturer specifically states to leave the factory oil in and not change it out early, I'd follow the recommendation, if nothing is said, I'd get it out early. JMO
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