this also the reason why I choose american car over japenese car, its hard to find a good mechanic that can change timing belt " the right way " accept stealer around here.
timing chain life
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Originally Posted By: MetalSlug
this also the reason why I choose american car over japenese car, its hard to find a good mechanic that can change timing belt " the right way " accept stealer around here.
Let me get this right - you are saying only "American" cars have chains, and all "Japanese" cars have timing belts?
this also the reason why I choose american car over japenese car, its hard to find a good mechanic that can change timing belt " the right way " accept stealer around here.
Let me get this right - you are saying only "American" cars have chains, and all "Japanese" cars have timing belts?
The new designed Chevy Malibu has a timing belt. Most Japanese engines now use a roller chain for the OHC engines. Belts are scheduled to be changed at 60 to 105,000 miles and a roller chain has no replacement interval and usually will go to ~ 175, 000+ miles. The idea that one is all good and the other is all bad does not fit here oldmaninse.
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I'm wondering what life you guys are getting from your timing chains. I hear they're good for the life of the engine, but we all know how that goes. Also state your configuration.
DOHC I4
236k
It is rattling a bit on cold start up. It seems its time is coming. Just wondering if mine is going prematurely or is longer than expected.
I've personally seen > 300,000 on Jeep 4.0 and 1990s 5.2 Magnum v8s. I've heard reports of even bigger numbers on Ford 4.6 Modulars, but its also reportedly chain stretch that usually knocks these engines out of taxi cab service- not catastrophic failure, the valve timing just gets so retarded that the engine finally won't start.
With more modern engines, it seems to often be the chain tensioners that fail before the chain itself. The plastic friction material will crack and break letting the chains go slack, or the mechanical ratchet will fail on oil-pressure tensioned systems letting the chains jump time on startup with the pressure is zero.
I'm wondering what life you guys are getting from your timing chains. I hear they're good for the life of the engine, but we all know how that goes. Also state your configuration.
DOHC I4
236k
It is rattling a bit on cold start up. It seems its time is coming. Just wondering if mine is going prematurely or is longer than expected.
I've personally seen > 300,000 on Jeep 4.0 and 1990s 5.2 Magnum v8s. I've heard reports of even bigger numbers on Ford 4.6 Modulars, but its also reportedly chain stretch that usually knocks these engines out of taxi cab service- not catastrophic failure, the valve timing just gets so retarded that the engine finally won't start.
With more modern engines, it seems to often be the chain tensioners that fail before the chain itself. The plastic friction material will crack and break letting the chains go slack, or the mechanical ratchet will fail on oil-pressure tensioned systems letting the chains jump time on startup with the pressure is zero.
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
The older 302's and 318's I've changed them on needed one between 65-80k miles. Mostly from stock nylon gears grinding down.
Yes, Ford, Pontiac, Chevy, Chrysler.... WAY too many engines used "silent" plastic timing gears in the 1970s. The noise a timing chain makes is SO slight I can't believe they ever really thought it was an issue worth attacking with plastic. I lost a plastic timing gear in a 1973 318 at 190,000 miles. The all metal dual roller (340 engines got that standard at the factory) lasted >200k and is in fact still going. The later "Magnum" 318 and 360 (5.2 and 5.9) had all metal timing sets and I've seen those pass 300k. Pretty sloppy and rattly by then, but still not close to jumping time. And I know of one Chevy 350 that wore a hole in the timing case from the loose chain before it finally jumped time on the north side of 300k.
The older 302's and 318's I've changed them on needed one between 65-80k miles. Mostly from stock nylon gears grinding down.
Yes, Ford, Pontiac, Chevy, Chrysler.... WAY too many engines used "silent" plastic timing gears in the 1970s. The noise a timing chain makes is SO slight I can't believe they ever really thought it was an issue worth attacking with plastic. I lost a plastic timing gear in a 1973 318 at 190,000 miles. The all metal dual roller (340 engines got that standard at the factory) lasted >200k and is in fact still going. The later "Magnum" 318 and 360 (5.2 and 5.9) had all metal timing sets and I've seen those pass 300k. Pretty sloppy and rattly by then, but still not close to jumping time. And I know of one Chevy 350 that wore a hole in the timing case from the loose chain before it finally jumped time on the north side of 300k.
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: MetalSlug
this also the reason why I choose american car over japenese car, its hard to find a good mechanic that can change timing belt " the right way " accept stealer around here.
Let me get this right - you are saying only "American" cars have chains, and all "Japanese" cars have timing belts?
no sorry for miss lead. I was talking back then. I know toyota having timimg chain too. back then I move to american car, since then I never though going back. Imma buy german car next but not going back to japenese car.
Originally Posted By: MetalSlug
this also the reason why I choose american car over japenese car, its hard to find a good mechanic that can change timing belt " the right way " accept stealer around here.
Let me get this right - you are saying only "American" cars have chains, and all "Japanese" cars have timing belts?
no sorry for miss lead. I was talking back then. I know toyota having timimg chain too. back then I move to american car, since then I never though going back. Imma buy german car next but not going back to japenese car.
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Originally Posted By: Eddie
The new designed Chevy Malibu has a timing belt. Most Japanese engines now use a roller chain for the OHC engines. Belts are scheduled to be changed at 60 to 105,000 miles and a roller chain has no replacement interval and usually will go to ~ 175, 000+ miles. The idea that one is all good and the other is all bad does not fit here oldmaninse.
That was exactly my point - but I guess you missed that.
And it's oldmaninsc not "oldmaninse"
If you look at my signature and my current list of cars you'd see that I own a "Japanese" car and I very aware of whether it is a chain or a belt.
My early 80's Ford Escort and Ford Pintos had a timing belt as well as a Ford Mustang (2.3L engine - a real joke in a "Mustang"). A family member had a late 70's Chevette that had a timing belt. I've replaced quite a few timing belts over the decades!
Most of my late 60's early 70's and 80's Datsuns had timing chains.
The new designed Chevy Malibu has a timing belt. Most Japanese engines now use a roller chain for the OHC engines. Belts are scheduled to be changed at 60 to 105,000 miles and a roller chain has no replacement interval and usually will go to ~ 175, 000+ miles. The idea that one is all good and the other is all bad does not fit here oldmaninse.
That was exactly my point - but I guess you missed that.
And it's oldmaninsc not "oldmaninse"
If you look at my signature and my current list of cars you'd see that I own a "Japanese" car and I very aware of whether it is a chain or a belt.
My early 80's Ford Escort and Ford Pintos had a timing belt as well as a Ford Mustang (2.3L engine - a real joke in a "Mustang"). A family member had a late 70's Chevette that had a timing belt. I've replaced quite a few timing belts over the decades!
Most of my late 60's early 70's and 80's Datsuns had timing chains.
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've personally seen > 300,000 on Jeep 4.0 and 1990s 5.2 Magnum v8s. I've heard reports of even bigger numbers on Ford 4.6 Modulars, but its also reportedly chain stretch that usually knocks these engines out of taxi cab service- not catastrophic failure, the valve timing just gets so retarded that the engine finally won't start.
With more modern engines, it seems to often be the chain tensioners that fail before the chain itself. The plastic friction material will crack and break letting the chains go slack, or the mechanical ratchet will fail on oil-pressure tensioned systems letting the chains jump time on startup with the pressure is zero.
I agree on all points. Over at Crownvic.net they are saying that the 2000 - 2003 models had a problem with bad chain guides. I guess Ford changed what they were made of and especially in vehicles with high idle times the guides need replaced around 100K miles give or take.
I've personally seen > 300,000 on Jeep 4.0 and 1990s 5.2 Magnum v8s. I've heard reports of even bigger numbers on Ford 4.6 Modulars, but its also reportedly chain stretch that usually knocks these engines out of taxi cab service- not catastrophic failure, the valve timing just gets so retarded that the engine finally won't start.
With more modern engines, it seems to often be the chain tensioners that fail before the chain itself. The plastic friction material will crack and break letting the chains go slack, or the mechanical ratchet will fail on oil-pressure tensioned systems letting the chains jump time on startup with the pressure is zero.
I agree on all points. Over at Crownvic.net they are saying that the 2000 - 2003 models had a problem with bad chain guides. I guess Ford changed what they were made of and especially in vehicles with high idle times the guides need replaced around 100K miles give or take.
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
The older 302's and 318's I've changed them on needed one between 65-80k miles. Mostly from stock nylon gears grinding down.
Yes, Ford, Pontiac, Chevy, Chrysler.... WAY too many engines used "silent" plastic timing gears in the 1970s. The noise a timing chain makes is SO slight I can't believe they ever really thought it was an issue worth attacking with plastic. I lost a plastic timing gear in a 1973 318 at 190,000 miles. The all metal dual roller (340 engines got that standard at the factory) lasted >200k and is in fact still going. The later "Magnum" 318 and 360 (5.2 and 5.9) had all metal timing sets and I've seen those pass 300k. Pretty sloppy and rattly by then, but still not close to jumping time. And I know of one Chevy 350 that wore a hole in the timing case from the loose chain before it finally jumped time on the north side of 300k.
Yeah I agree with this also. I never understood why they used the plastic timing gears. Many years ago, my Dad had an early 80's Oldsmobile with the V6 - 3.8 I think. Anyhow he called and said it wasn't running very well so he brought it over to my house. When we went out to look at it I asked him to start it and pull into the garage. It wouldn't start. When we tore it apart - we found the plastic gear on the camshaft was missing about 40 percent of the teeth.
I told him with his luck he should go to Vegas. The drive from his house to mine was about 120 miles!
LOL! And yes I had one of those old Chevy 350 wear a hole in the cover - it was an old beater we used in the winter when I lived in St. Paul.
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
The older 302's and 318's I've changed them on needed one between 65-80k miles. Mostly from stock nylon gears grinding down.
Yes, Ford, Pontiac, Chevy, Chrysler.... WAY too many engines used "silent" plastic timing gears in the 1970s. The noise a timing chain makes is SO slight I can't believe they ever really thought it was an issue worth attacking with plastic. I lost a plastic timing gear in a 1973 318 at 190,000 miles. The all metal dual roller (340 engines got that standard at the factory) lasted >200k and is in fact still going. The later "Magnum" 318 and 360 (5.2 and 5.9) had all metal timing sets and I've seen those pass 300k. Pretty sloppy and rattly by then, but still not close to jumping time. And I know of one Chevy 350 that wore a hole in the timing case from the loose chain before it finally jumped time on the north side of 300k.
Yeah I agree with this also. I never understood why they used the plastic timing gears. Many years ago, my Dad had an early 80's Oldsmobile with the V6 - 3.8 I think. Anyhow he called and said it wasn't running very well so he brought it over to my house. When we went out to look at it I asked him to start it and pull into the garage. It wouldn't start. When we tore it apart - we found the plastic gear on the camshaft was missing about 40 percent of the teeth.
I told him with his luck he should go to Vegas. The drive from his house to mine was about 120 miles!
LOL! And yes I had one of those old Chevy 350 wear a hole in the cover - it was an old beater we used in the winter when I lived in St. Paul.
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this guy has 1.2 million miles on a 1997 ford 5.4L modular and has the original timing chain
http://www.millionmilevan.com/
http://www.millionmilevan.com/
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Originally Posted By: Donald
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
The chain "stretches". I suppose that technically the connecting pins and the rollers wear, although I have never known anyone to actually state this specifically.
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
The chain "stretches". I suppose that technically the connecting pins and the rollers wear, although I have never known anyone to actually state this specifically.
Originally Posted By: Donald
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Depends on the year. If it came from a year where "silent" (that means "nylon") cam gears were in vogue, then the nylon wears down until the teeth break off the cam gear and the timing chain slides around the gear.
Years with all-metal chains are just like any other cam-in-block V8 with no tensioner- the chain gradually stretches and gets noiser and noisier. On the SBC in particular more than Ford and Mopars (although all will eventually do it), the floppy chain will begin to rub the timing cover until it grinds a hole in it and makes a nice big oil leak.
As the manufacturers have introduced more and more efficient engines that depend on very precise timing, variable valve timing, etc., even cam-in-block engines now usually have a slack-side chain tensioner and IT tends to become the early failure point. I've been told that the first couple of years of the new Hemi had some tensioner issues that would tend to show up around 100k miles. The Jeep 4.0 has a chain snubber, but it seems to last forever just like the rest of the engine.
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Depends on the year. If it came from a year where "silent" (that means "nylon") cam gears were in vogue, then the nylon wears down until the teeth break off the cam gear and the timing chain slides around the gear.
Years with all-metal chains are just like any other cam-in-block V8 with no tensioner- the chain gradually stretches and gets noiser and noisier. On the SBC in particular more than Ford and Mopars (although all will eventually do it), the floppy chain will begin to rub the timing cover until it grinds a hole in it and makes a nice big oil leak.
As the manufacturers have introduced more and more efficient engines that depend on very precise timing, variable valve timing, etc., even cam-in-block engines now usually have a slack-side chain tensioner and IT tends to become the early failure point. I've been told that the first couple of years of the new Hemi had some tensioner issues that would tend to show up around 100k miles. The Jeep 4.0 has a chain snubber, but it seems to last forever just like the rest of the engine.
Tensioners and guides frequently cause death. You would think compared to the other parts in an engine, they should be pretty easy to make correctly.
My old Ford F150, 1998, 4.6L 2V engine now has more than 250,000 miles on it and both the chains and tensioners are quiet. In fact, the engine runs perfectly. 5000 mile changes with M1, 10w30.
Is there anything you can do to prolong the life of the timing chain system? Other than regular oil changes?
I used to think visiting redline would cause it harm, then I thought about sportbikes with chains that see 15,000 rpms.
I used to think visiting redline would cause it harm, then I thought about sportbikes with chains that see 15,000 rpms.
Sportbikes have had a lot of chain tensioner issues over the years - more noise than damage.
One thing that I know of from sportbikes is that there are resonance RPM's where everything flaps around and puts lots of force on the tensioner and guides and other points in the RPM range where everything is smooth. I remember on the Honda F2 and F3's from 5K to 6K the chain would yank and bounce on the guides, above and below that they were pretty smooth.
I assume the same is true for cars and it could be that at 3,100 RPM there is significantly more chain/guide stress than at 3,000 or 3,200. Just picking random numbers here.
Also on DOHC engines there are times in every rotation that one cam is being pushed forward by the valve springs and the other is being pushed back, or vice versa. This can cause the chain to flap between the cam sprockets. The same is true on the tight side of the chain, usually the crank gear is pulling it forward, but then the valve springs will try to push the cam forward ahead of the crank as each lifter crests its cam lobe. All of this is why the tension has to be so high and also why once a tensioner starts to loose tension, or a guide starts to wear, things very quickly deteriorate. And the higher the spring pressure and more aggressive the cam profiles the higher stress on the timing components.
One thing that I know of from sportbikes is that there are resonance RPM's where everything flaps around and puts lots of force on the tensioner and guides and other points in the RPM range where everything is smooth. I remember on the Honda F2 and F3's from 5K to 6K the chain would yank and bounce on the guides, above and below that they were pretty smooth.
I assume the same is true for cars and it could be that at 3,100 RPM there is significantly more chain/guide stress than at 3,000 or 3,200. Just picking random numbers here.
Also on DOHC engines there are times in every rotation that one cam is being pushed forward by the valve springs and the other is being pushed back, or vice versa. This can cause the chain to flap between the cam sprockets. The same is true on the tight side of the chain, usually the crank gear is pulling it forward, but then the valve springs will try to push the cam forward ahead of the crank as each lifter crests its cam lobe. All of this is why the tension has to be so high and also why once a tensioner starts to loose tension, or a guide starts to wear, things very quickly deteriorate. And the higher the spring pressure and more aggressive the cam profiles the higher stress on the timing components.
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Donald
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Depends on the year. If it came from a year where "silent" (that means "nylon") cam gears were in vogue, then the nylon wears down until the teeth break off the cam gear and the timing chain slides around the gear.
Years with all-metal chains are just like any other cam-in-block V8 with no tensioner- the chain gradually stretches and gets noiser and noisier. On the SBC in particular more than Ford and Mopars (although all will eventually do it), the floppy chain will begin to rub the timing cover until it grinds a hole in it and makes a nice big oil leak.
As the manufacturers have introduced more and more efficient engines that depend on very precise timing, variable valve timing, etc., even cam-in-block engines now usually have a slack-side chain tensioner and IT tends to become the early failure point. I've been told that the first couple of years of the new Hemi had some tensioner issues that would tend to show up around 100k miles. The Jeep 4.0 has a chain snubber, but it seems to last forever just like the rest of the engine.
Don't be quite so sure about the Jeep 4.0 engine lasting forever. Your year (2001) and a few other years has definite problems with piston skirt cracking and then possible total engine failure. In mine the wrist pin was not even attached to the piston when the oil pan was pulled. But yes, they are mostly bullet proof. My reman engine has almost 4K on it, wow!!
Originally Posted By: Donald
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Depends on the year. If it came from a year where "silent" (that means "nylon") cam gears were in vogue, then the nylon wears down until the teeth break off the cam gear and the timing chain slides around the gear.
Years with all-metal chains are just like any other cam-in-block V8 with no tensioner- the chain gradually stretches and gets noiser and noisier. On the SBC in particular more than Ford and Mopars (although all will eventually do it), the floppy chain will begin to rub the timing cover until it grinds a hole in it and makes a nice big oil leak.
As the manufacturers have introduced more and more efficient engines that depend on very precise timing, variable valve timing, etc., even cam-in-block engines now usually have a slack-side chain tensioner and IT tends to become the early failure point. I've been told that the first couple of years of the new Hemi had some tensioner issues that would tend to show up around 100k miles. The Jeep 4.0 has a chain snubber, but it seems to last forever just like the rest of the engine.
Don't be quite so sure about the Jeep 4.0 engine lasting forever. Your year (2001) and a few other years has definite problems with piston skirt cracking and then possible total engine failure. In mine the wrist pin was not even attached to the piston when the oil pan was pulled. But yes, they are mostly bullet proof. My reman engine has almost 4K on it, wow!!
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Donald
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Depends on the year. If it came from a year where "silent" (that means "nylon") cam gears were in vogue, then the nylon wears down until the teeth break off the cam gear and the timing chain slides around the gear.
Years with all-metal chains are just like any other cam-in-block V8 with no tensioner- the chain gradually stretches and gets noiser and noisier. On the SBC in particular more than Ford and Mopars (although all will eventually do it), the floppy chain will begin to rub the timing cover until it grinds a hole in it and makes a nice big oil leak.
As the manufacturers have introduced more and more efficient engines that depend on very precise timing, variable valve timing, etc., even cam-in-block engines now usually have a slack-side chain tensioner and IT tends to become the early failure point. I've been told that the first couple of years of the new Hemi had some tensioner issues that would tend to show up around 100k miles. The Jeep 4.0 has a chain snubber, but it seems to last forever just like the rest of the engine.
Don't be quite so sure about the Jeep 4.0 engine lasting forever. Your year (2001) and a few other years has definite problems with piston skirt cracking and then possible total engine failure. In mine the wrist pin was not even attached to the piston when the oil pan was pulled. But yes, they are mostly bullet proof. My reman engine has almost 4K on it, wow!!
those having problem is the one that over rev the engine, over rev while off road, driving like having a v8, its 4.0l. its slow, drive it easy. I seen many wj on the road around here, every where I go, I seen at lest 5 wj.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Donald
What wears with respect to the timing chain on a GM 5.7L engine. I have one in a boat and one in a Suburban. Or do they just keep on going?
Depends on the year. If it came from a year where "silent" (that means "nylon") cam gears were in vogue, then the nylon wears down until the teeth break off the cam gear and the timing chain slides around the gear.
Years with all-metal chains are just like any other cam-in-block V8 with no tensioner- the chain gradually stretches and gets noiser and noisier. On the SBC in particular more than Ford and Mopars (although all will eventually do it), the floppy chain will begin to rub the timing cover until it grinds a hole in it and makes a nice big oil leak.
As the manufacturers have introduced more and more efficient engines that depend on very precise timing, variable valve timing, etc., even cam-in-block engines now usually have a slack-side chain tensioner and IT tends to become the early failure point. I've been told that the first couple of years of the new Hemi had some tensioner issues that would tend to show up around 100k miles. The Jeep 4.0 has a chain snubber, but it seems to last forever just like the rest of the engine.
Don't be quite so sure about the Jeep 4.0 engine lasting forever. Your year (2001) and a few other years has definite problems with piston skirt cracking and then possible total engine failure. In mine the wrist pin was not even attached to the piston when the oil pan was pulled. But yes, they are mostly bullet proof. My reman engine has almost 4K on it, wow!!
those having problem is the one that over rev the engine, over rev while off road, driving like having a v8, its 4.0l. its slow, drive it easy. I seen many wj on the road around here, every where I go, I seen at lest 5 wj.
Don't they have rev limiters? It should be pretty hard to over-rev a modern engine, virtually impossible with an automatic.
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