Timing Belts

[Chris Meutsch]

Timing belts are really, really durable. I've seen all of mine after they were taken out, some after 8 years, and they still looked new (Honda's). Now I also have seen one after 20 years and it broke after 230k and was cracked completely.

I had a factory tensioner spring bail out after 30k and it took out the head. It happens I guess. I didn't pay for the repair.

 

[Eddie]

When the manufacture warranties the timing belt and parts driven by it for ~ 200,000 miles, I may go for it. ed

 

[Lolvoguy]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
That's it, I'm converting my Focus to a timing belt from a chain!

Honestly I prefer the simplicity of a chain. Just one less thing to go wrong should the cam/crank seal fail and dump oil all over the timing belt.

If it means my engine is slightly noisier/less fuel efficient, so be it. That's what ear plugs and skinny tire setups are for.


I think by 2007, all US spec Focuses came with the Duratec engine which uses a timing chain


I know. that's why I wanna downgrade to a belt for the fuel economy.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
When the manufacture warranties the timing belt and parts driven by it for ~ 200,000 miles, I may go for it. ed
When timing belts start showing up in over-the-road diesel trucks and in aircraft engines, then ...

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy

most useless list ever


Its close enough to get an idea if its interference or not so someone can do further research. Please your your list.

 

[dlundblad]

The belt in her Volvo was at around 145ish when we replaced it. Visually it didn't look bad, but the tensioner looked to have leaked a bit.

At least with her car, I am more worried about the aged tensioner and pulley failing as opposed to the belt.

 

[wtd]

I personally won't own a vehicle with a timing belt. I don't want to pay the crazy amount of money to get one replaced as a maintenance item and not all of the replacements are DIY friendly. After looking at the procedure for replacing the one on my daughter's 2004 Kia Rio as well as replacing the water pump, belt tensioner, and idler pulley, I decided it was too much hassle with not much room to work on it. I would rather have something with a chain.

Wayne

 

[DBMaster]

Been there, done that. Owned a vehicle for 23 years/353,000 miles on which I performed four TB changes. The first two I did myself and for the next two supplied parts to a Honda shop. It was either $100 in parts and 3-4 hours hard labor, or $100 in parts and $200 in shop labor. (obviously, this was not a super-complicated TB job). MUCH prefer the lack of need for this guaranteed periodic expense.

I guess that must be why almost all OEM's reverted back to timing chains in the intervening years. I remember that timing chains were one of the big selling points touted by Saturn in the early '90s.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: Chris Meutsch
Timing belts are really, really durable. I've seen all of mine after they were taken out, some after 8 years, and they still looked new (Honda's). Now I also have seen one after 20 years and it broke after 230k and was cracked completely.

I had a factory tensioner spring bail out after 30k and it took out the head. It happens I guess. I didn't pay for the repair.

As I understand it, timing belt failures typically occur not because the belt gives way, but because the tensioner or idler pulley seizes.

 

[fdcg27]

So maybe Honda had it all right originally before screwing up and going with chain driven DOHCs?
We've had seven Hondas with timing belts and have had one with a chain for four years.
The T-belt service with the works ran around five hundred bucks and might be needed no more than once in the life of the car.
The timing chain would cost considerably more to replace although I don't think that's a typical failure in the K24.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
As I understand it, timing belt failures typically occur not because the belt gives way, but because the tensioner or idler pulley seizes.

Correct. That's why shops won't really just do a belt without making you do rollers and new tensioners - and usually a water pump.

So when guys shop for a timing belt job the price for just the belt change - and say - eh I can swallow that - then they go take it in for a quote and shop comes back with a $1500 bill.

UD

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: wtd
I personally won't own a vehicle with a timing belt. I don't want to pay the crazy amount of money to get one replaced as a maintenance item and not all of the replacements are DIY friendly. After looking at the procedure for replacing the one on my daughter's 2004 Kia Rio as well as replacing the water pump, belt tensioner, and idler pulley, I decided it was too much hassle with not much room to work on it. I would rather have something with a chain.

Wayne


Timing Chains & Tensioners fail also, More so with Tensioners. Cavaliers with the 2.2L are notorious for tensioner failures.
As the Coyote engines age.....Guide, Tensioner, Main & Secondary Chain issues will crop up......They already have issues when performance camshafts & high rate valve springs are installed.

Later LSX engines with Timing Chain Tensioners have problems with the spring in the tensioner falling into the pan & bending push rods as a result.

90% of Timing Belt jobs are very easy......The 90's GM DOHC 3.4L are the hardest Timing Belts I've done, Thank god most of those POS are gone! Funny thing about those engines is they had a conventional Timing Chain along with a Timing Belt.

Easiest Timing Belt to change IMHO.....90's 2.2L Toyota's.

 

[RooflessVW]

Not to mention even the hard belts are easy. The infamous "Audi service position" only takes about 45 minutes once you're practiced and you then have access to the whole front of the engine.

In my experience ease of maintenance goes out the window when dealing with chains because they're not meant to be serviced. And when they fail at random, the parts are more expensive.

 

[Vikas]

Talking about Audi, is there any Audi model with the chain which does NOT need to be replaced prematurely? Obviously I am also talking about guide and/or tensioner, essentially anything which will require the owner to "assume the service position" at or before 100K miles.

 

[Kestas]

I've only done a few of these jobs. For me the hardest part of the job is removing the dampner nut and removing the dampner. Not everyone has an air gun and compressed air at their disposal. Is removal more the rule, or can most belts be removed with the dampner on?

 

[DBMaster]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
I've only done a few of these jobs. For me the hardest part of the job is removing the dampner nut and removing the dampner. Not everyone has an air gun and compressed air at their disposal. Is removal more the rule, or can most belts be removed with the dampner on?


Not sure about all cars, but on the two cars I serviced the timing belt cover could not be removed without first removing the balancer/pulley.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
I've only done a few of these jobs. For me the hardest part of the job is removing the dampner nut and removing the dampner. Not everyone has an air gun and compressed air at their disposal. Is removal more the rule, or can most belts be removed with the dampner on?


No, I've never seen one that can be replaced with the balancer still installed. Both my Honda and the Sienna have timing belts, and I bought the proper crankshaft holder for each. That coupled with a 3/4” breaker bar and socket from Harbor Freight has never failed to remove the bolts. You do not need an impact wrench.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Talking about Audi, is there any Audi model with the chain which does NOT need to be replaced prematurely? Obviously I am also talking about guide and/or tensioner, essentially anything which will require the owner to "assume the service position" at or before 100K miles.

Yes. The "trouble engines" (providing they haven't already been serviced with upgraded parts) are the EARLY 4.2 and 5.2 TFSI, (less so the 5.2 for whatever reason) W12, and VR6 engines. Emphasis on EARLY.

They're all more or less sorted now.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: wtd
I personally won't own a vehicle with a timing belt. I don't want to pay the crazy amount of money to get one replaced as a maintenance item and not all of the replacements are DIY friendly. After looking at the procedure for replacing the one on my daughter's 2004 Kia Rio as well as replacing the water pump, belt tensioner, and idler pulley, I decided it was too much hassle with not much room to work on it. I would rather have something with a chain.

Wayne


Timing Chains & Tensioners fail also, More so with Tensioners. Cavaliers with the 2.2L are notorious for tensioner failures.
As the Coyote engines age.....Guide, Tensioner, Main & Secondary Chain issues will crop up......They already have issues when performance camshafts & high rate valve springs are installed.

Later LSX engines with Timing Chain Tensioners have problems with the spring in the tensioner falling into the pan & bending push rods as a result.

90% of Timing Belt jobs are very easy......The 90's GM DOHC 3.4L are the hardest Timing Belts I've done, Thank god most of those POS are gone! Funny thing about those engines is they had a conventional Timing Chain along with a Timing Belt.

Easiest Timing Belt to change IMHO.....90's 2.2L Toyota's.


Lets say that 90% are "easy".

99% of the owners will opt to have a shop do it anyway so regardless how easy its still a day in the shop, a rental car for the day and a somewhat large bill.

The ones that arent easy - are a real PIA.

A buddy asked me to help him to his Acura legend once. He'd have paid anything for a shop to do it half way through job
I went online and looked at doing my own for my RX - no thanks.I could replace an entire top end on a SBC in the time it would take me to do that.

Timing chain replacement hard? Like everything totally depends on the mill.
A high school kid can do a small block chevy chain replacement on a Saturday.
An audi- oh yeah thats gonna be a job.

Extended OCI's especially on DOHC multivalve cam phased engines are not chain friendly ,
Modern oil does a great job of keeping particles suspended, but those particles are still going round and round all your parts.

Guys here argue all the time about magnets being useless but the buildup of " grinding compound" wherever you put a magnet keeps it that much more out of the oil.
Even with the very best filters I ALWAYS find stuff on magnets wherever I put them.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

PT Cruisers are in the hard category, that's for sure.

Really, though. Any transverse engine is not easy.