time to experiment - projector housings

[meep]

It's getting cold out and I need to tinker.

Let me first say I am *picky* about light quality, but am also fascinated with light--- I have fussed and moaned on several forums and countless posts about [censored] HID lighting and blinding others, glare, cutoff, light distribution, hot spots, dark spots, near field vs distance vision. I tried a HID bulb swap myself and saw first hand how it just didn't work.

So if you follow what I'm doing, at least give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm doing this to tinker, and perfectly willing to put the parts somewhere else if they don't work on-road, politely to others.

My used truck has crummy headlamps. I've adjusted them 2-3 times and they work, but it's splotchy, very splotchy. bulbs look recent, filaments aren't sagging, etc..

So i've ordered some morimoto projectors from theretrofitsource and an H1 kit from ddm to install in them. I plan to bench test the whole shebang, probably for a number of hours once I get them. If the focus and distribution proves good, I'll consider an install. If it's not, but I can tweak the shield and alignment, I'll consider... If not, I'll make some pole-standing floodlights or some kind of cool high-powered lantern and permanently kiss my interest in this technology goodbye.

I know it can be done--- I've seen folks get it right when using projectors--- and I'd personally enjoy the project and the challenge. I *know* that an hid in a halogen housing is awful--- I sing that in the choir.

so--- thought I'd share. it's a hobby--- and if I can get it right it would be a nice addition.

wish me luck!
Mikey

 

[sciphi]

Pretty please post pictures? I for one have heard nice things about the Morimoto Mini H1 projectors, especially the latest version. I'll be honest, I considered those exact projectors to swap into the Cruze before learning how hard it is to crack open its headlights. After that, a headlight harness got cobbled together, and I'm happy with that as a cheaper alternative.

Looking forward to seeing what you have to say about these.

 

[Mud]

I did a complete xenon projector retrofit in my 2002 vic. IMO the only way to get proper focus and light output. The new owner whom I know has had no issues with the setup at all. It was a lot of (hobby) work but well worth it.

If its of any help, got to www.picturetrail.com and look up pics for yellowmudtruck, look in CV Lighting album.

 

[meep]

thanks! that's beautiful job on the CV. Classy and smoooooth.... did you run into any issues with rotation alignment to keep the cutoff level, or any other snags?

The one i'm trying has a narrow butt that threads through the existing lamp hole. You spin a clamping ring on the back to secure it, but I'm not sure if there will be any bracketry I'll be able to "grab" once it's in the housing. I may have to test it, in the housing, prior to sealing the clear front back on.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I, too, am looking forward to this project.

Your Tundra uses HB2s if I recall correctly. H4s fit right in, and most bulbs are dual-marked. The very best drop-in performance you'll get is from Philips Xtreme Power (or the new Xtreme Vision) with a harness upgrade. I've used the Xtreme Powers in our CR-V (H4) and they're quite a dramatic improvement over OE type bulbs. Right now I have slightly less bright Philips Vision Plus bulbs in it because I got them on clearance at Kmart and wanted to try play around. I don't know about the Tundra, but I was pleasantly surprised at the CR-V's reflector performance with upgrade bulbs. Beam focus is incredible...there's a bright hot spot right down the center of the road, and the upper and left edges of the hot spot "square" define the notch in the beam. Moving away from center, it's a very even (and quite white) beam spread. MUCHO bettero compared with OE bulbs.

If you can procure Xtreme Power or Xtreme Vision bulbs, you might give them a shot, especially if the projector retrofit turns out to give you fitment problems. The Tundra's housings may not have the beam focus that the CR-V's housings have, I don't know. But I was quite surprised at the bulbs' performance either way.

Who is the supplier for your Tundra housings? Are they NAL or Stanley or other? It should say on the front; Toyota has used NAL often in the past, but I don't know if that holds true for your Tundra.

Our CR-V on Xtreme Powers. The image is over-exposed a bit, but you can see the very even distribution of light. I'd love to see a similar picture of your Tundra's head lamps. I, too, have become very interested in automotive lighting, and in head lamps in particular.

 

[sciphi]

Recent Honda headlamps have been pretty good. The Fit's headlamps and foglights are both quite functional after re-aiming and putting better bulbs into the headlamps.

I'm tempted to spring for Xtreme Power H13 bulbs for the Cruze, but don't want to risk one blowing in 3 months with the harness running the low beams at full power whenever the car is on.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Some other random thoughts:

(1) I have seen a non-trivial number of Tundras and Sequioas (which both use the same head lamp housing) with H4 bulbs that have been clocked wrong in the housing. The tabs on the bulbs should be such that this is difficult or impossible, but I have seen a good number where one head lamp looks correct, but the other head lamp is all jacked up. An H4 has a Graves shield or small cup, below the dip beam filament. This blocks light from the filament from reaching the lower portion of the reflector, which is what produces the main (high) beam light. In dip (low) beam mode, only the upper half of the reflector is in use. Well, I have seen installs where the graves shield was obviously not on the bottom of the bulb, but to one side of the other. In effect, the left or right half of the reflector is dark, while the other half is bright. That'd be okay if only the upper half were lit, but because the Graves shield is out of the way, the lower half was lit as well, creating a very wonky beam (and dazzling the eyes of oncoming drivers). So while I absolutely do not intend to insult your intelligence, do check to ensure that the bulbs are installed correctly in the housings. I've seen this enough on these Toyota housings to think that perhaps the locating keys on the housings are loose enough such that a bulb can be installed incorrectly.

(2) Will you lose your main (high) beam functionality with a projector retrofit into a single bulb appliction like yours? Something to think about.

(Personal opinion) I really like the H4 bulb setup, with the Graves shield. This technology is actually very old; the Graves shield was patented in 1920, and is mentioned on page 7 of this PDF as technology that significantly reduces glare to other drivers. The Graves shield itself is quite old, and the H4 bulb in particular is no spring chicken either, having been introduced back in the '70s. But in general, it still works quite well, and housings utilizing this type of bulb generally have very good beam focus. And by "beam focus", I don't mean a sharp upper cutoff, though that can be a factor. By "beam focus", I mean putting an appropriate amount of usable light to the sides of the vehicle while still maintaining good intensity down the road.

My biggest gripe with USDOT type beam patterns is the light spread within the beam. It's a very un-focused light with a wide spread. It "looks good" to the human eye, to have lots of side light and foreground light, but seeing distance is generally reduced because you don't have an area of high intensity near the center of the beam. HB5 and H13 bulbs represent extreme compromises here; they are dual-filament bulbs, but they utilize no shielding on either of the filaments. They rely on filament placement, combined with reflector design, to produce a good pattern with minimal glare. The result is often an optimized beam pattern for only the dip beam or the main beam, with subpar performance on the other. It's hard to get both with that type of bulb. With a shielded bulb, you can very easily design a reflector that takes advantage of the mechanical shielding. This is why housings that take H4 bulbs (or the close USDOT equivalent, HB2) have "cut lines", either in the reflector itself, like these:

Or in the glass as flutes, like these:

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, and I'm getting off my soap box now.

 

[meep]

hokie, man your comments are never taken as an insult--- I enjoy the discussions and always learn something.

The oem units throw a wide, warm beam with lots of foreground light and two faded splotchy spots towards the horizon. It's fine on neighborhood streets, but at 40+ you can't even see them--- it's just street lamps that get you there. I disassembled, cleaned, and re-aimed the oem fogs and they add a significant amount of light, which is kind of sad since the bulb is fenced in to only allow a small snippet of light through. So yes, the headlights are weak. They are indeed functional--- not horrible, but whereas I'm not very picky, these bother me.

I'm sorta second guessing my order at this point. I went with smaller housings (H1 style) that would fit in either the heads or the fogs (more options for experimentation), but you get a slightly better distribution with the other (D2s) model that would only fit in the heads. I was able to save some $ going the H1 route, but the more serious I get, the more I wished I'd just spent the extra $35 to achieve use of the oem D2S standard bulb, and just focused (ha) on the mains.

As for the highs, these projector units include a solenoid attached to an internal shutter that opens up the beam patter for brights. I know I will have to work out the wiring to keep the bulbs fed regardless of switch position. Assuming headlight ground is always ground and the (+) is switched, I could just use a couple of larger diodes and rely on the inverter to compensate for the V drop, or I could use a couple of relays. I don't think the inverters will have any issue with a drop in V, and they pull less current than the stock lamps except when striking. I do recall some older vehicles shifting the center lead of the bulb from +/- depending on high/low, and need to be careful with that.... some metering will be taking place before I decide on a design. Obviously the highbeam solenoid will just get wired to the highbeam leads, it won't care about polarity.

Though I'm experienced with wiring, I'm actually looking forward, a lot more, to the mechanical part of this. Will also be interesting to see what the wife thinks. If she decides she wants it, I'd be happy to work it into her mdx as well ('02).

 

[Hokiefyd]

Let me ammend my point (1) above:

(1.5) On our CR-V, there is a certain "handedness" to the housings. There shouldn't be, but there is. And by that, I mean that the beam pattern and cutoff is different if I swap the bulbs left-to-right. I know they're designed to be the same, but manufacturing tolerances are likely rearing their ugly heads here. It may be worth a try to switch your bulbs left-and-right, just to see if it makes a difference.

Originally Posted By: meep
Will also be interesting to see what the wife thinks. If she decides she wants it, I'd be happy to work it into her mdx as well ('02).


The OEM lamp housings on the 2004-2006 MDXes are fantastic. They're from NAL, which is a brand of the very excellent Japanese lighting company Koito. The dip beam is an H11 in a projector and the main beam is an HB3 in a parabolic bowl. The projectors are very nice VOL pieces that do a great job of distributing the light in the pattern. They throw a rather wide pattern (but not like an LS460) and obviate my desire to use the otherwise quite good OE fog lamps. The projector doesn't throw a bunch of foreground light on the road...light actually doesn't really begin until you get about 15 feet in front of the vehicle. Initially, I thought, "these stink, there's no light up close!" But after using them for a while, I really appreciate how they work. Driving at night is very low-fatigue; your pupils don't open wide because of a bunch of foreground light (as long as you're not using the fogs).

As far as I know, the 04-06 lamps are a direct swap on the earlier MDXes, with the obvious need to get an adapter for the dip beam bulbs (HB4 to H11). Folks have also done true HID retrofits with TSX projectors or similar, but that's not a plug-and-play deal...some modification is required to mount the projectors in the housings.

This is something I wish the industry would standardize on: projector "footprints". To a large degree, the external size and shape of projector systems is relatively similar across the board. You have small changes in the external envelope (some use three mounting points, some use four), but in most cases, it's not intentional and simply the result of different engineering teams working without a standard template. Just as standardized sealed beam and composite footprints have existed in the past, and still exist today, I think there is room in the industry to standardize on a projector footprint as well. There's little reason why an MDX projector, for example, and a TSX projector need to have a different external envelope. Good functionality and customization can still exist with the shape of the bowl and glare shield, even if some "hard points" were defined in terms of maximum external dimensions, required mounting holes, etc.

I'd love to see the same thing with reflector designs as well. Take your Tundra and my CR-V as an example. The size and shape of the reflector part of the lamp is very similar. There's little reason why there can't be a "modular" head lamp design where the external housing is stylized to fit in with the exterior design, with a rear section (the reflector itself) that bolts to the back of the housing as a module. It'd be relatively easy to provide a standard template, dimensionally, and sealing shouldn't be a problem. When you look at most reflector lamps, the GENERAL sizes and shapes of reflectors can be grouped into a limited number of categories.

If the industry got back to a standardized set of lighting specifications, lamp performance would move forward at a much greater pace, because you'd have the Koitos and Hellas of the world designing leading-edge lamp modules that can be utilized on nearly any vehicle, keeping traffic handedness in mind.

 

[Mud]

Good comments ^^^
you asked about alignment, I had checked where "level" was on the housings as mounted on the car. When I installed the E55's all I had to do was match the projector cross-level to the housing level marks I had made. Hope I explained that ok

I saw the info on wiring, not sure if my cv work applies, but I also made a new harness to use direct battery power to relays rather than thru the headlight switch. The switch now just supplies milli-amps needed to energize the relays. There's a wiring diagram in the pics that shows this.
The E-55 projectors were set up already for hi- lo beams using a shutter solenoid, these were US spec projectors that had the proper left side cutoff for oncoming traffic. Because of the single headlight on each side , I wired in a diode to ensure the ballasts had power when hi beams were selected , otherwise they would cut off.
I used 3 relays, one each for L/R low beams and one for both high beam solenoids. This way if there was a problem I only lose one side lo beams, losing both hi beams would be ok.

 

[meep]

^^^ that's sort of where I was going, though I may drive the solenoids w/o relays. they won't draw much. since the low filament switches off when high goes hot, I may need to diode-feed from both low + and high + to the relay + so the relay sees power regardless of low/high selection. a relay per side is smart. it will probably take me as long to wire neatly, dress it, mount it, finish it, as it will to do the housings...

 

[Mud]

Pm me and I can email you the complete write I did for crownvic.net.

 

[sciphi]

Any updates?

 

[meep]

Ok the projectors have come in, and they look pretty nice. The overall feel is solid and rigid. the reflector uses moderately thick metal with what seems like a very thick dose of chrome. the internal surface is smoooooth and highly polished, and the machining on the threads is clean. The "weak spot" where the threaded snout mates to the reflector bowl is reinforced with a very faint buttress or extra bit of metal, a nice surprise.

The solenoid shutter assembly is made out of stamped metal and is practical if not overbuilt. The hinge assemblies do not use precise bearings, rather just a piece of the sheet metal sticks through a hole in which to pivot. I don't know how many hi-lo cycles it will be able to handle before wear becomes an item? a couple thousand? They advise adding a drop of oil, but I don't see any smooth surfaces for the oil to really help on, and you don't want oil drying and gumming up the solenoid after time & heat sets in. I think graphite would be a better choice, but do *not* want graphite powder puffing out of the solenoid and making a home in the lens/mirror assemblies. I may just leave it dry. or just a drop of MTB chain lube. undecided.

The lens is clear glass, free of visual defects, bubbles, chips, or warping. It is held in place by a notched plastic ring that seems adequate for its purpose.

Due to the weight of the assembly, I think the product itself is well-made, however would caution that off-road or racing applications may have some risk in the housing. All that weight is cantilevered against the oem bulb flange. From a "I want the aim to stay SET" perspective, I'll have to spend some time making sure I'm ok with that interface between projector and housing.

The lamps and ballasts from DDM have shipped but have not arrived yet. I chose the 35w slim ballasts and 4.5k kelvin lamps. I have used a ddm set before in an offroad lamp and was happy with them, though they did not get hours upon hours of use. The lamp kit from morimoto looked to be a slightly higher build quality, but the price was about double. For now, I figured the ddm product would be fine, and if it fails too quickly I can always switch over.

The only challenge I see right now is the mount. The snout (rear) of the projector is perhaps 5/8" dia, whereas the opening in the lamp assembly is closer to 1 1/4". Sure, a decent metal "washer" will suffice, and in fact is included in the kit, but it remains to be seen how well that washer, the opposing face (large, molded silicone ring), and the oem bracketry, will support the full assembly with Zero play.

I'll update as I can--- this may not be a quick project just because of, oh, work, 4 kids, holiday season, and a diy kitchen refresh, oh and the 41TE in the van is on the fritz.... so forgive me if I'm slow. Believe me, I'm *thinking* about it daily.... (the R/C helicopter I started to learn on in march has sat untouched for weeks--- something has to give....)

Next step--- receive the lamps, and bench test in the garage for beam quality, maybe leave them hot for a few hours of burn-in? I don't post pics on 3rd party sites, and bitog doesn't do local attachments, so I may have to just write it all up.

M

 

[Vikas]

thanks for the update! can you post some pictures? I am trying to understand the scale of the projector.

 

[meep]

i'm not sure how to post here, since I can't upload the pics direct to the site, and don't want to mess around with establishing a 3rd party site. BUT

http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=3181

Dimensions

Max Depth:
136mm (5.35" inches)
Max Height
70mm (2.75 inches)
Max Width
80mm (3.14 inches)
Lens Diameter
2.5 inches

 

[sciphi]

Not to get too OT, but what about Flickr or Photobucket? Or no dice?

Great writeup so far on the projectors, it sounds like they're quality units. I'm eager to hear what you have to say about mounting them inside the headlights and how secure that seems.

 

[meep]

The HID lamps from DDM finally made it in. It's the slim ballast kit with H1 bulbs, temp around 4500k. The ballasts look a bit different than the one's I'd had before--- the finish on them is not as consistent.

So I popped a knock-out from an electrical box and assembled one of the projectors, mounted to that box, which I then clamped to a portable table.... and waited for the sun to set.

The first incident was that the ballast fried my 13.8V 10A linear power supply. It ran it for about 6 seconds then I smelled the smoke. the PS was outputting a full 24V after that, unregulated. There went some serious coin--- maybe I can repair it later. Only thing I can think of is the ballast backfed some serious dirty power, which doesn't deem well for interfering with the stereo in the truck. This was not a cheap supply either--- hefty benchtop unit with 100's of hours of use. And linear, not switched, so it should have been pretty robust. Full overload, short protection, etc., and a good 20 pounds. Whatever the ballast was backfeeding, it wasn't pretty.

As a last-ditch effort, I plugged said ballast straight to the car battery, and it came right up, so apparently the ballast does have some hearty internal protection, as it withstood several start attempts at 24v.

The stock light output is nice.... a nice white (not blue at all) color. sharp upper cutoff. wide beam. the hotspot is right behind the stairstep in the upper cutoff, which is then revealed if the highbeam solenoid is triggered. It's a good focus, and the light distribution is very even. Light output is more intense than oem, however not as intense as other oem projectors I've seen. It's very usable, however. Standing in front of it, there is less glare to my eyes than from the oem headlights.

Now for the first issue: there is a lower cutoff that leaves the road dark from the bumper to about 25' out, maybe 30. I suspect this is because the lamp is designed for sedans with a lower mounting point, in which case, at say 17" it would be *ideal*. my lamps center at 34", my test stand at 32", and aimed at even a way conservative 2' drop per 25', there's a big Black Hole in front of the vehicle. So the next task will be to remove the plate that restricts the output inside (four screws) and dremel it open a bit. Probably 1/8" on the foreground edge and retest.

Off to a good start. Pretty positive.

M

 

[sciphi]

Some cutoff right in front of the car is wanted so the eye isn't overwhelmed with foreground light. But 20 feet sounds excessive.

I'm concerned with the long-term effects of the DDM ballasts. Those must be some really junky ballasts that throw off a lot of unwanted EM radiation. Good to know we do indeed get what we pay for with HID ballasts.

 

[HerrStig]

That PS is what...a couple of pass transistors, a driver, and a chip regulator a 723 maybe? Hard to figure how it got blown up. Look at the drive voltage on the base of the driver transistor if it has one, otherwise the base of the pass transistor (s).