This "EV Thing" isn't going away.....

[JeffKeryk]

Solar panels on the average house are another $20,000 with a 30 year break even, that's with factoring tax credits (which also are thumbs on the scales of unfair competition). Morally repugnant to be giving the wealthy tax credits to put on solar panels. And yes, it's the upper class who are going to afford these NON-ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY panels. Plenty of evidence these are extremely toxic to product and dispose of.

How much is having a home charger installed, another $5,000?

More of that unfair competition using my tax dollars to give tax credits to the wealthy who least need them. As stated upthread, the average salary of a Tesla owner is $150k. Why are cash strapped Americans breaking our backs, to give wealthy people $7 grand so they can buy toys? It's morally repugnant.

My solar project cost break even is 6 to 7 years. The Tesla shortens the time with every charge. I love my solar!
I do not like subsidies, but singling out EV subsidies is silly. Don't the new subsidies have a cap on income? Not sure...
It cost me $600 all in, including tip, to run 50' of #6 copper wire and a NEMA 14-50 into the garage. I did have room in the service panel. Work was done by a union electrician in his spare time.

Based on your posts, it is understandable why you may be against EVs. Respectfully, your numbers are hardly accurate. You are not the only one, by the way. Unless someone can support their "facts", their numbers may be suspect.
I have posted a million times that EVs are not for everyone. Neither are lotsa cars.

 

[leadcounsel]

I question what numbers you've ran. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. My charging numbers are from my actual charging. If you pay for supercharging every time, yes, it will only be slightly cheaper. I charge off peak in my garage on 120v(I didn't install the charger). I would likely pay for the charger if I get a second electric vehicle and no longer have a gas car. I typically plug in twice a week for my usage and typically plug in at 50% charge. It's $0.13 a KWH. Its much much cheaper even than driving my GTI.

Not sure what your fight is on this but worst case scenario electric is far cheaper than best case scenario ICE. Buy what you like, I don't really care, but to come on here telling people who do it and use it daily and do the math on a regular basis. You also have no clue on brakes. Sure, you'd want beefy brakes on any vehicle, but this isn't a heavy car and 90% of its braking is regenerative braking, which means braking components last much longer than an ICE car depending on driving style. You basically use the physical brakes to stop from 5 mph unless it's a panic stop. I would tell you how much my car weighs but I'd love to hear from you what you think a RWD Model 3 weighs. Again, weight equals tire wear, so how heavy is my car again? As far as tire requirements go you could run a standard tire. I don't recommend it if you don't want to hear road noise though, EV tires tend to have foam padding to absorb noise. As far as that goes the stock tire is 235/45R18 and the stock Michelin is $320 a piece.

Got any other complaints? Just curious why electric cars bother you so bad that you have to make up "stats". By "stats" I mean saying they're similar when I gave you hard numbers from my charging and my fuel usage extrapolated out for the 150,000 mile example you showed. Sure I dumbed down the fuel cost to around 30 mpg when I average a hand calculated 34 mpg, but most people aren't driving cars like that, nor is a GTI comparable to a Model 3 and the Model 3 still walks all over it in efficiency.

I just ran the numbers again, from Teslas website, setting aside my high speculation for IDEAL charging and driving habits. (Real world reports that these battery power estimates are very idealistic.)

EV Charging Calculators | Expert estimate in two clicks

On this page you can calculate charging time and other parameters, depending on your electric vehicle, socket type, desired charging percentage and other.

evadept.com

Tesla 3: $45,000
Honda Civic: $27,000 or almost 1/2 the cost.

2024 Civic Sedan – Sporty Design | Honda

The all-new 2024 Honda Civic Sedan turns up the fun, with a sporty ride, spacious cabin and available Bose® audio.

automobiles.honda.com

Tesla 3 range 200 miles, using $0.15 per kwh example, using a "free" phase 1 charger plugin
Charging can take anywhere from 10 to 72 hours, and costs $15
Meanwhile, in my area gasoline hovers around $3.5 per gallon. A 2023 Honda Civic gets 35 mpg.

A 400 mile trip comparison.
Honda Civic: 1 time fueling, 10 minutes. At 35 mpg, and $3.50/gal the cost for the trip is $40 and uses 11.5 gallons.
Tesla 3: 10-72 hours to charge it the first time, costing $15. Then a fast charge at 200 miles, costing at least another $15 or more. This assumes you can find a station with a charger, and that it's available, and it will cost you 30-60 minutes or so. The actual dollar costs are at least comparable to a fuel efficient ICE, but obtaining the energy is far less convenient.

Ideal situations. Cold weather drains, aging battery, etc. all work against the Tesla numbers.

There's few ways anyone can evaluate this and think a Tesla is more economical for the average user. The only possible justification is someone who has high levels of disposable income and only short trips between overnight charging. And even in that scenario, the T3 costs $18k more at the outset. One would never break even against gasoline prices, unless she has access to free energy (like a work promotion benefit).

Tires: You mentioned $1300 for a set for a Tesla 3. Honda Civic replacement 17" Cooper tires are Tire Rack, $690, about 1/2 the Tesla tire set.

You might refocus your anger toward useful pickup trucks, and look inward at exuberant very environmentally harmful EVs.

 

[leadcounsel]

My solar project cost break even is 6 to 7 years.

Because you live in California where it is an ideal climate for solar power, and EV use. No snow. No heavy rains. A climate paradise, so to speak.

In other climates, like mine, solar takes 20 or 30 years to break even. In many climates, EVs are simply not practical for 1/2 the year in the cold weather months. Tesla has an entire page dedicated to winter driving tips especially for their vehicles; of note "Your Tesla vehicle has many features designed to optimize your cold-weather driving experience. In cold weather, vehicles use more energy to heat the battery and cabin, and it’s normal to see energy consumption increase."

I interpret that to mean, your 300 mile range is degraded substantially in cold weather.

It's no surprise that California is the leading market for EVs. They are simply not annually useful to most people in northern states, like they are year-round to California's who seem to live in a climate paradise and have disproportionately large amounts of disposable income. California, with its political ideology, climate, and wealth is the ideal market and about 42% of registered vehicles are EV. Next are not surprisingly mostly good weather states with leftist political centers, Texas (5%), Arizona (3%), New York (3%), Florida (6%), and Washington (5%). The trend is obvious, these are directly tied to ideal weather, and wealthy urban hubs where the owners are predisposed to the climate change narrative culture. Only 13 total states report registrations above 1%, and the majority of states reflect less than 1% of vehicle registrations as EVs. So the bulk of the ~3% Tesla market share is basically centered around about 13 very predictable major population centers; probably San Fran, LA, Seattle/Bellevue, Austin/Dallas/Houston, Atlanta, Denver, NYC, Chicago, Phoenix/Tucson, and a couple others. Less to do with how great it is, versus status, exuberance, and virtue signaling.

Current EV registrations in the US: How does your state stack up and who grew the most YOY?

A detailed list breaking down the most recent data involving registrations of battery EVs in the US, compared by side-by-side by state.

electrek.co

As for the stock price, overvalued at 100x earnings or something like that as someone else pointed out upthread. That signals more about irrational excitement and exuberance, than reason. I saw an old thread here touting how the sky is the limit for Tesla, less than a year ago before the split when it was nearly 900 (450 post split). Lot's of confidence way back 9 months ago about endless growth. My, how much a year has made, now at $130 (that's up 7% today). Down about 65% in 8 months.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I just ran the numbers again, from Teslas website, setting aside my high speculation for IDEAL charging and driving habits. (Real world reports that these battery power estimates are very idealistic.)

EV Charging Calculators | Expert estimate in two clicks

On this page you can calculate charging time and other parameters, depending on your electric vehicle, socket type, desired charging percentage and other.

evadept.com

Tesla 3: $45,000
Honda Civic: $27,000 or almost 1/2 the cost.

2024 Civic Sedan – Sporty Design | Honda

The all-new 2024 Honda Civic Sedan turns up the fun, with a sporty ride, spacious cabin and available Bose® audio.

automobiles.honda.com

Tesla 3 range 200 miles, using $0.15 per kwh example, using a "free" phase 1 charger plugin
Charging can take anywhere from 10 to 72 hours, and costs $15
Meanwhile, in my area gasoline hovers around $3.5 per gallon. A 2023 Honda Civic gets 35 mpg.

A 400 mile trip comparison.
Honda Civic: 1 time fueling, 10 minutes. At 35 mpg, and $3.50/gal the cost for the trip is $40 and uses 11.5 gallons.
Tesla 3: 10-72 hours to charge it the first time, costing $15. Then a fast charge at 200 miles, costing at least another $15 or more. This assumes you can find a station with a charger, and that it's available, and it will cost you 30-60 minutes or so. The actual dollar costs are at least comparable to a fuel efficient ICE, but obtaining the energy is far less convenient.

Ideal situations. Cold weather drains, aging battery, etc. all work against the Tesla numbers.

There's few ways anyone can evaluate this and think a Tesla is more economical for the average user. The only possible justification is someone who has high levels of disposable income and only short trips between overnight charging. And even in that scenario, the T3 costs $18k more at the outset. One would never break even against gasoline prices, unless she has access to free energy (like a work promotion benefit).

Tires: You mentioned $1300 for a set for a Tesla 3. Honda Civic replacement 17" Cooper tires are Tire Rack, $690, about 1/2 the Tesla tire set.

You might refocus your anger toward useful pickup trucks, and look inward at exuberant very environmentally harmful EVs.

A Civic is more economical than just about any other car. Great cars; I love Civics. People don't cross shop Civics and Teslas. But they will when the $25K "Model 2" comes out. Perhaps do your comparison on a BMW, Benz, Audi, etc. The luxury market.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I can definitely see how in your extremely unique 1%er situation, living in 2 houses with 5 vehicles in a sunny paradise, with obvious wealth, solar panels and an EV vehicle make sense given how you've explained it. If I were in your extremely unique situation, I too would consider solar and an EV as a backup vehicle, fleecing American tax payers of tax credits for solar and EVs. Admiring Musk's $300,000,000,000 empire, which capitalizes on slave labor abroad that strip mines the environment of cobalt, nickel and lithium at insatiable rates. While 70% of fellow Americans are living hand-to-mouth, paycheck to paycheck, 43,000,000 in poverty, probably 10 million homeless. So maybe I wouldn't live that way, afterall.

I am not fleecing anyone. If you wanna compare tax burdens, let me know. If you wanna compare annual donations to those in need, let me know.
FYI, I was a lowlife homeless drunk for many years. No one has to tell me about the other side of life.

 

[leadcounsel]

Tesla almost reminds me of the Peloton craze that lasted about 2 years. Nutty. At one point Peloton was selling $2000 stationary bikes with the equivalent of a Ipad, along with $40 monthly subscriptions for zoom training. The company shot up in value in 1-2 years, and started having quarterly earnings in the $500 million to a $1 billion, and this stationary bike company went on to be worth more than $15 BILLION dollars.

But then people wised up, there were some scandals, a death, and folks stopped grossly overpaying for a stationary bike. Peloton went through a price slashing season, cutting bike and subscription costs to stop the bleeding. Peloton is now nearly irrelevant.

Peloton slashed another 500 jobs as it fights to turn things around. Here's how the fitness company went from a pandemic-era success story worth $50 billion to laying off more than 5,000 workers this year alone.

Peloton was once at the top of the fitness food chain, but the fading popularity of at-home fitness and bungled logistics sent it into a tailspin.

www.businessinsider.com

More than $10 billion wiped from Peloton's market cap since dismal earnings report

Peloton shares extended their losses on Monday, on the heels of the company's disappointing fiscal first-quarter financial report.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Astro14]

The only one “angry“ here is you, @leadcounsel - your vitriol has been unfairly directed towards @JeffKeryk.

Yes, his situation is different than many, but he’s been open about his good fortune, his past, and his choices.

While I may not always agree with him, there are two things I genuinely admire about Jeff - his generosity and his honesty.

He gives away his time, and cars, to people in need. His time, talent, and treasure are spent on others.

He‘s been very open about his past, about where he once was, and where he is now. His gratitude on rising above his beginnings is even more admirable than the success itself.

No more posts that go after @JeffKeryk - I’m serious, and I’m speaking as a moderator. We agreed not to engage in personal attack and I don’t like where this thread has gone.

 

[leadcounsel]

The only one “angry“ here is you, @leadcounsel - your vitriol has been unfairly directed towards @JeffKeryk.

Yes, his situation is different than many, but he’s been open about his good fortune, his past, and his choices.

While I may not always agree with him, there are two things I genuinely admire about Jeff - his generosity and his honesty.

He gives away his time, and cars, to people in need. His time, talent, and treasure are spent on others.

He‘s been very open about his past, about where he once was, and where he is now. His gratitude on rising above his beginnings is even more admirable than the success itself.

No more posts that go after @JeffKeryk - I’m serious, and I’m speaking as a moderator. We agreed not to engage in personal attack and I don’t like where this thread has gone.

Acknowledged and let me be clear I don't know him nor should my posts be construed as a personal attack to him or any EV owners. What I say only challenges the "down our throats" media narrative hype of these EVs which is tiresome. That's all, nothing more and nothing personal. I'm sorry if I inartfully crossed a line, no harm was intended. I've tried to be very factual.

He's probably a great guy. He just happens to be the loudest advocate and repeat person here having a dialogue on EVs, on a forum about motor oil. It's odd, but there's lots of off topic discussions here I've noticed.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I would humbly ask that we try and respect other opinions. We are all unique in our experiences. I do not understand the hate for Tesla, EV, Musk, etc.
A key reason I bought the Tesla was in support of the reopening of the ex GM/NUMMI plant in Fremont, just up the road. When NUMMI closed, thousands lost their livelihood, homes, etc. The local tax base was decimated because NUMMI was the biggest employer in the area.
Today more than 20,000 people work at NUMMI with good paying jobs and benedits, far more than ever worked at NUMMI. They are always hiring.

I salute and support that.

 

[Torrid]

I just ran the numbers again, from Teslas website, setting aside my high speculation for IDEAL charging and driving habits. (Real world reports that these battery power estimates are very idealistic.)

EV Charging Calculators | Expert estimate in two clicks

On this page you can calculate charging time and other parameters, depending on your electric vehicle, socket type, desired charging percentage and other.

evadept.com

Tesla 3: $45,000
Honda Civic: $27,000 or almost 1/2 the cost.

2024 Civic Sedan – Sporty Design | Honda

The all-new 2024 Honda Civic Sedan turns up the fun, with a sporty ride, spacious cabin and available Bose® audio.

automobiles.honda.com

Tesla 3 range 200 miles, using $0.15 per kwh example, using a "free" phase 1 charger plugin
Charging can take anywhere from 10 to 72 hours, and costs $15
Meanwhile, in my area gasoline hovers around $3.5 per gallon. A 2023 Honda Civic gets 35 mpg.

A 400 mile trip comparison.
Honda Civic: 1 time fueling, 10 minutes. At 35 mpg, and $3.50/gal the cost for the trip is $40 and uses 11.5 gallons.
Tesla 3: 10-72 hours to charge it the first time, costing $15. Then a fast charge at 200 miles, costing at least another $15 or more. This assumes you can find a station with a charger, and that it's available, and it will cost you 30-60 minutes or so. The actual dollar costs are at least comparable to a fuel efficient ICE, but obtaining the energy is far less convenient.

Ideal situations. Cold weather drains, aging battery, etc. all work against the Tesla numbers.

There's few ways anyone can evaluate this and think a Tesla is more economical for the average user. The only possible justification is someone who has high levels of disposable income and only short trips between overnight charging. And even in that scenario, the T3 costs $18k more at the outset. One would never break even against gasoline prices, unless she has access to free energy (like a work promotion benefit).

Tires: You mentioned $1300 for a set for a Tesla 3. Honda Civic replacement 17" Cooper tires are Tire Rack, $690, about 1/2 the Tesla tire set.

You might refocus your anger toward useful pickup trucks, and look inward at exuberant very environmentally harmful EVs.

Do you even listen? Who is cross shopping a Civic and a Model 3? The person who is considering a Model 3 is cross shopping a Mercedes C Class or BMW 3/4 series. Not sure where you got 200 miles of range. Sure with 20%-30% batter left.

Are you really quoting full charge at Level 1? I even mentioned this. This is how I charge. My rate is $0.13. If I run it completely dead it costs $10.02 to charge the 77kWh battery back to full. I even said I charge at least twice a week. You're quoting a car that gets 35mpg. I have one of those.

You might try listening. You're just reciting what I told you and you're throwing it back at me. I told you what the tires cost. $1300 is not a lot for tires. Sure, $690 is cheaper but the Tesla is not replacing tires more often than an average car at 3800lbs.

Again, no one is cross shopping a Civic and Model 3. You can make up any scenario you want, but our cross shop was either a loaded Camry, VW's electric ID.4, and the Model 3. Why are you so bothered by the fact that it made financial sense for the cars we were considering? Do you want to buy the cheapest car or the one you like the most that makes financial sense for your situation?

I have no problem finding chargers here, but I rarely need them. The amount of times I go anywhere that would require charging along the way is less than once a month. It's seen a supercharger twice so far at 15-20 minutes to charge from 40%-90% at around $12 each.

As far as disposable income it's not fully an economic choice. We wanted a premium car that was still inexpensive to operate. A Civic was not and would not have ever been a consideration for this purchase. Nice try though.

 

[Torrid]

A Civic is more economical than just about any other car. Great cars; I love Civics. People don't cross shop Civics and Teslas. But they will when the $25K "Model 2" comes out. Perhaps do your comparison on a BMW, Benz, Audi, etc. The luxury market.

Thank you for your comment. I'm sorry I did not read it before my reply. I went in as a buyer and knew what I was looking for when purchasing a car and your comment hit the nail on the head.

 

[Astro14]

Folks - I’m going to lock this for a while. The posts have gotten abrasive and personally critical. Let’s all take a break.

 

[Astro14]

Unlocked.

 

[zzyzzx]

Don't the new subsidies have a cap on income?

https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/605081/ev-tax-credit-inflation-reduction-act-2022-changes

If you’re single, and your modified adjusted gross income is over $150,000, you won’t qualify for the EV tax credit. The EV tax credit income limit for married couples who are filing jointly is $300,000. And if you file as head of household and make $225,000 or more, you also won’t be able to claim the electric vehicle tax credit.

There are other limitations as well.