No one that wants an Ev will care.
This "EV Thing" isn't going away.....
- Thread starter CKN
- Start date
Please elaborate.
Wyoming is on the case
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...makers-propose-ban-on-electric-vehicle-sales/
Hundreds of industries have issues with forced labor and child labor
Including domestic Industries (the enemy is sometimes us)
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/20/tech/hyundai-child-labor-investigation/index.html
As an example most any shrimp and seafood you find in the grocery store
that has any mention of China is likely to involve, involuntary labor .
Knowing which ones is nearly impossible as it’s a big bucket of “packaging and processing “ industries that are all over the map.
John321 said: ↑
If they take an issue that cuts across hundreds of industries but only mention it as being an issue with one specific one choosing winners and losers to take the blame for a shared problem.
Then yes they are.
Cobalt mining practices are a problem spanning 5 decades and affecting many industries.
Focus should be on the owners of the mines and Cobalt industry, not just one slice of one of its consumers.
Cobalt use is basically a 50/50 split between cellular and EV with the dirtiest cheapest 10% of “Cobalt “ almost entirely going into cheap portable Chinese gizmos
It’s amazing that nobody cared about child labor until EVs were invented
here is a common site when our “recyclables “ get sent overseas.
Children have small hands that can sort wire by colors
Fixing the problem is good but the cure shouldn’t be worse than the cause and we need to be intelligent and accountable in a broad sense.
These issues are cultural, long standing and rooted, it will take a long time to reduce and will be complicated to address.
Getting China to care about its own peoples wellbeing let alone for foreign assets it owns is challenging at best.
As others have noted some industries are attempting to clean up their supply chain, domestic EVs included
which is good but I don’t expect any massive shift overnight. In some cases “technology “ may eliminate the need for Cobalt altogether but that too is on a decades scale.
Also While we worry about child labor, other children that aren’t touching any of our industries are starving
or fighting armed ethnic and religious wars that we mostly ignore .
There are some rather large fish to fry, which ones do we choose to place our limited resources to affect?
Average truck price is comparable to a Tesla 3, around $45,000. In fact, the F150 is the best selling truck in America. The XL starts at $34,000, the XLS is $41,000, and the Lariat is $57k. They do go up from there, true. But a basic F150 can be had for less than a Tesla 3. Trucks make up 5 of the top 10 best selling models, and the Tesla 3 isn't on the top 10 list. Far different animals, and people who buy trucks do indeed use them for truck duty and as their only vehicle. The only Tesla in the top 10, behind 4 trucks, is the $65,000 luxury Model Y.
EVs are rarely used as the primary/only household vehicle, they are generally a secondary or toy. Millionaires buy Teslas. Middle class blue collar folks are not the market target. Most Tesla owners own more than 1 vehicle.
Average Tesla Demographics is an AVERAGE salary of $150k, which is over twice the average household income of less than $70k. Most own their own home, which is California almost requires millionaire status. Overwhelmingly most Tesla owners live in California. An income of $150k annually puts a person into millionaire status in less than a decade. Given the average age of Tesla owners is around 50, deductive reasoning says most are millionaires.
https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2018/11/tesla-owner-demographics/
You say you see "so many electric cars in your small town." You must be an anomaly. They make up less than 1/4 of 1% of all Wisconsin registrations. As of May 2022:
Total EVs registered registered in Wisconsin, where you say you live, is under 10,000 representing about 0.11% of all registrations.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/ne...hicles-are-registered-in-wisconsin/ar-AAXKTZe
Nothing you have said is supported by objective evidence.
I know that truck buyers use them as dailys. I did too. I dispute that many of them use them for truck duties, that's a very small demographic. They daily them, but argue the 4WD is unbeatable for winter. I know of a couple that pull boats but that's about it. The problem is with your complaint that original purchase price doesn't take in account the overall cost to own. The $45k F150 will cost much more to operate than a $45k Model 3. What you're telling me is that people that own multiple cars make more money and they tend to buy Teslas. That's kind of a no brainer, but I see many people here that own Teslas and I'm not in an affluent area and for that matter the median is closer to $40k. It sounds like your numbers show that lower income people tend to make worse financial decisions.
At the end of all of this I don't understand what your argument is. How does this make Teslas bad or F150s good? The demographic might agree with what you said but that doesn't make a Tesla a rich person's car. It just means that some people would rather spend more money on an inferior product because they think they know better what works for them. That's their right to make poor decisions. I've done it in the past too.
I don't know what to tell you on registrations. I live in a town of a $40k median income and I'm 1 of 4 Teslas on my road alone. The owners of 2 of 5 hotels in town drive Teslas too. It's rare that I drive through town and I don't see some form of electric car. It wasn't like this last year.
While I believe IF it’s actually true garbage people are trying to run you off the road because you are driving a EV…
That’s just really garbage behavior worthy of a very serious criminal charge. Those garbage individuals should be arrested and charged to the highest extent of the law.
I am also equally aggravated by people who want to dictate what others they are allowed to purchase or drive… Because of a looney tunes agenda garbage…
Both here are… deplorable in my very strong belief.
That’s just really garbage behavior worthy of a very serious criminal charge. Those garbage individuals should be arrested and charged to the highest extent of the law.
I am also equally aggravated by people who want to dictate what others they are allowed to purchase or drive… Because of a looney tunes agenda garbage…
Both here are… deplorable in my very strong belief.
Do the math...
The Tesla Model 3 now starts at $44K. Can be $7,500 less with tax credit.
The Camry starts under $30K for a strippie and can go to over $40K I believe.
Depending on a lotta variables and your use case, a Tesla might be the better buy, all in.
Insurance, gas vs electricity prices, maintenance, resale all come into play.
If you regularly drive over 200 miles in a day, the Camry probably makes more sense.
If you cannot charge at home and/or gas is dirt cheap (like when I was in TX), the Camry is a great choice.
If you drive like most Americans and/or have solar panels like I do, the Tesla may be a compelling choice.
Depends on what you want and especially your use case. Regardless, there will be more cross shoppers.
The squeeze is on.
The Tesla Model 3 now starts at $44K. Can be $7,500 less with tax credit.
The Camry starts under $30K for a strippie and can go to over $40K I believe.
Depending on a lotta variables and your use case, a Tesla might be the better buy, all in.
Insurance, gas vs electricity prices, maintenance, resale all come into play.
If you regularly drive over 200 miles in a day, the Camry probably makes more sense.
If you cannot charge at home and/or gas is dirt cheap (like when I was in TX), the Camry is a great choice.
If you drive like most Americans and/or have solar panels like I do, the Tesla may be a compelling choice.
Depends on what you want and especially your use case. Regardless, there will be more cross shoppers.
The squeeze is on.
I will also add, that the generic "truck" is one of the most common vehicles on the road and I too get quite annoyed with the behemouths that people drive in when it appears to be grossly unnecessary. But I also don't see them for more than, generally, a few minutes. I have no idea if they are going to get a load of lumber, or going to pick up a boat, or what. Or if they can only afford 1 vehicle so they get a truck and, while not always practical, I see them on Saturday with an empty truck, but they need a truck every week-day for work. It's not how I do it, I have a truck for truck jobs, and a car for daily driving errands. To me two lower priced vehicles are more sensible than 1 overpriced truck. Many people don't think logically.
As for a ICE costing more to operate, I disagree.
Taking normal driving patterns into consideration, a reasonably maintained $45,000 car or truck around year 15 will have 150,000 miles, require minimal maintenance, be worth probably $10,000 and be around 1/2 life. The ICE owner still has a valuable vehicle with plenty of life. Repeat this at year 30, when a well maintained vehicle with 300k still has life left. Plenty of 30 year old cars and trucks on the roads to prove this point. Total year 30 cost is the original $45k plus maintenance, repairs, and energy.
Around year 15, a $45,000 Tesla is going to require a new battery costing around $15,000. At that point, the car become disposable because absent major increases in battery life and decreases in costs, repairs are more than the intrinsic value and it goes to the scrap yard. The Tesla owner is faced with disposing of the hulk and replacing it. Using current technology limits, the Tesla owner is disposing of her 2nd Tesla at year 30, because the battery died and is to expensive to replace. Total year 30 cost is $45k for Tesla #1, $45k for Tesla #2, and price of the replacement 3rd vehicle, plus all of the energy, repairs, and maintenance.
To me the ICE owner wins by a large margin.
Honest evaluations of the costs of fuel, energy, maintenance, etc. favor one or the other but are a general tie overall with too many variables and insufficient EV data to make any case favoring EVs. We do know EVs are about 25% more expensive to repair, however.
Solar panels on the average house are another $20,000 with a 30 year break even, that's with factoring tax credits (which also are thumbs on the scales of unfair competition). Morally repugnant to be giving the wealthy tax credits to put on solar panels. And yes, it's the upper class who are going to afford these NON-ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY panels. Plenty of evidence these are extremely toxic to product and dispose of.
How much is having a home charger installed, another $5,000?
More of that unfair competition using my tax dollars to give tax credits to the wealthy who least need them. As stated upthread, the average salary of a Tesla owner is $150k. Why are cash strapped Americans breaking our backs, to give wealthy people $7 grand so they can buy toys? It's morally repugnant.
Interesting numbers on the battery. I’m not even including maintenance in my numbers. Try math for fuel costs for going 150,000 miles. It’s about $20,000. Add oil changes. Trans service. 150,000 mile battery replacement even is uncommon. There’s many 200,000 mile cars out there already. Could it happen? Sure. Guaranteed though you’ll pay the $20k in fuel though. Overall for current consumption I’d pay about $6k charging the Model 3. Fuel cost at $20k is around 30mpg. It’s gets worse as the vehicle gets bigger and less efficient.
For transparency I didn’t include other service costs because anything like tires and brakes will be similar between both kinds of vehicles.
I've run the energy vs. gasoline numbers at fair current rates and they're about the same, when setting aside EV marketing hype of range and using real world numbers. Hint: If you believe the glossy marketing hype of battery range and costs to charge, think again. It's empty promises and ideal real world situations. Regardless, there's too many variables in electricity costs, availability, range, driving habits, fuel costs, etc. to make a definitive statement. Using rough estimates in my view it costs about $50 to drive 400 miles in a Telsa, and about the same in a similar ICE vehicle.
Are you remembering to add the charge, around 5 grand, for the home garage charger install as well? How about the hidden inconvenience taxes of charging on the go, the 30 minute wait, the higher costs of charging at public spots (that might be full)?
EVs and ICE have their own unique demands, such as EVs typically require heartier tires and more stout brakes, due to their 30% excess weight per class. ICE have fluids to maintain. None of these figures are going to be a definitive win or loss for the platform IMHO, nor sway anyone to go this or that way.
IMO there's no chance that Teslas compared to similar ICE class vehicles will be cheaper after about year 10 or 15.
There’s plenty of 30 year old cars in areas that don’t heavily salt their roads every winter* Out here rust has eaten them or they’re not daily driven year round.
Same here, only the ******es here are driving Daddy's BMW, MB, Audi, and Lexus, pretty much in that order. Many times Daddy is driving it too. I saw a few ******es driving Tesla's too, but they're still far and few. The PU nut jobs seem to come out more in the snow around here. Just a local observation.
I question what numbers you've ran. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. My charging numbers are from my actual charging. If you pay for supercharging every time, yes, it will only be slightly cheaper. I charge off peak in my garage on 120v(I didn't install the charger). I would likely pay for the charger if I get a second electric vehicle and no longer have a gas car. I typically plug in twice a week for my usage and typically plug in at 50% charge. It's $0.13 a KWH. Its much much cheaper even than driving my GTI.
Not sure what your fight is on this but worst case scenario electric is far cheaper than best case scenario ICE. Buy what you like, I don't really care, but to come on here telling people who do it and use it daily and do the math on a regular basis. You also have no clue on brakes. Sure, you'd want beefy brakes on any vehicle, but this isn't a heavy car and 90% of its braking is regenerative braking, which means braking components last much longer than an ICE car depending on driving style. You basically use the physical brakes to stop from 5 mph unless it's a panic stop. I would tell you how much my car weighs but I'd love to hear from you what you think a RWD Model 3 weighs. Again, weight equals tire wear, so how heavy is my car again? As far as tire requirements go you could run a standard tire. I don't recommend it if you don't want to hear road noise though, EV tires tend to have foam padding to absorb noise. As far as that goes the stock tire is 235/45R18 and the stock Michelin is $320 a piece.
Got any other complaints? Just curious why electric cars bother you so bad that you have to make up "stats". By "stats" I mean saying they're similar when I gave you hard numbers from my charging and my fuel usage extrapolated out for the 150,000 mile example you showed. Sure I dumbed down the fuel cost to around 30 mpg when I average a hand calculated 34 mpg, but most people aren't driving cars like that, nor is a GTI comparable to a Model 3 and the Model 3 still walks all over it in efficiency.
You sound hostile
You sound hostile
You know what? I'm starting a feel a bit hostile. This stuff gets really old. I thought a site like this especially would be a factual conversation with hard numbers, although Mobil 1 vs. Pennzoil usually becomes a big to do as well.
I hear ya, Its why I post charts and graphs as much as I can to at least show where my point of view comes from and the thinking behind it.You know what? I'm starting a feel a bit hostile. This stuff gets really old. I thought a site like this especially would be a factual conversation with hard numbers, although Mobil 1 vs. Pennzoil usually becomes a big to do as well.
I dont mind at all if people do not agree with me but to me its empty if not showing some source or thought process that they are using. I can actually learn from stuff like that but I cant learn from opinions void of fact.
I too sound hostile at times I am sure to the opposing views
So it's all good! *LOL*I haven't bought any new vehicles since 2003. Prices are just way too expensive. I can't justify a vehicle payment that's as high as a mortgage payment...
The whole "evil millionaire" thing is about as overplayed as Johnny Depp being a pirate.
The half ton truck is the most subsidized vehicle in the US. Not a peep about that.
Platinum, palladium, and cobalt have been problems for decades - nary a peep.
30K home charger? please... a 50 amp dryer connection works just fine.
The demographics of the S and X are wildly different than the vastly more popular 3 and Y.
https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-tesla-driver-owner-income-age-careers-demographics-2022-10
The half ton truck is the most subsidized vehicle in the US. Not a peep about that.
Platinum, palladium, and cobalt have been problems for decades - nary a peep.
30K home charger? please... a 50 amp dryer connection works just fine.
The demographics of the S and X are wildly different than the vastly more popular 3 and Y.
The typical Tesla driver is a Millennial or Gen-Z man that lives in an area with a median household income of $85,000
https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-tesla-driver-owner-income-age-careers-demographics-2022-10
