This "EV Thing" isn't going away.....

[JeffKeryk]

I told you what happened. You do not like it bcs. it involves Tesla.
You cannot compare two trips involving the same driver and vehicle, let alone different drivers, cars, routes etc.
Take into consideration this was moving. The vehicle loaded to the top. He had front seat with stuff on it. So weight is a big deal. Going from LA to Denver is not the most economical route. I did it numerous times. There is a huge elevation change throughout the route. You can do that easily with ICE, but obviously not that easy with EV.
Now, imagine that scenario in a minivan with 1yrs and 3yrs old. Not something that most people would subscribe to.

Also, that calculated route you posted. On this planet, no, it won't happen, at least for now. 19hrs of actual driving is possible with ICE.

Uh, you were the one making the comparison. I was asking for clarification. I am not sure why you make assumptions on what I know (numbers) and what I don't like. I am simply trying to get to the bottom of your post.

I never said I did not like it; I said it doesn't make sense. A difference between 18 hours vs 3 days involves a whole lot more than a Pilot and a Tesla. I've driven the Grapevine and through LA freeway traffic. Uphill the Tesla consumes a lot of energy; so does the Pilot. Downhill the Tesla gains energy. In stop and go, the Pilot mileage suffers and the Tesla mileage shines.

From you posts I am sure you are a pretty sharp person. I am trying to have a honest, person to person conversation.

 

[edyvw]

Uh, you were the one making the comparison. I was asking for clarification. I am not sure why you make assumptions on what I know (numbers) and what I don't like. I am simply trying to get to the bottom of your post.

I never said I did not like it; I said it doesn't make sense. A difference between 18 hours vs 3 days involves a whole lot more than a Pilot and a Tesla. I've driven the Grapevine and through LA freeway traffic. Uphill the Tesla consumes a lot of energy; so does the Pilot. Downhill the Tesla gains energy. In stop and go, the Pilot mileage suffers and the Tesla mileage shines.

From you posts I am sure you are a pretty sharp person. I am trying to have a honest, person to person conversation.

19hrs you posted is actual driving. That is 2 days! In real world 19hrs on map always turns into few extra hrs. So we are talking possibly, AT BEST, 22-23hrs in the car.
With ICE you can knock out that route in under a day. Once you, as a driver pass certain hrs, you have to, well, sleep. I did numerous routes like this where you can knock it out in a day before you actually have to crash and sleep.
Tesla cannot do that (add to that this is not a long-range model). So you MUST stop overnight. The same happened next day. I really do not know other variables here. Who hit what traffic etc. But you very well know that you will get to Denver from LA in your GS350 much faster than Tesla. Not to mention if you use the opportunity that CSP is underfunded and does not have enough cars between San Bernandino and NV borderline and step on it.

I am all ears to tell me about your road trip of 1000-1200mls in Tesla.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Imagine how cool it is when your EV charging is going like this:

 

[JeffKeryk]

19hrs you posted is actual driving. That is 2 days! In real world 19hrs on map always turns into few extra hrs. So we are talking possibly, AT BEST, 22-23hrs in the car.
With ICE you can knock out that route in under a day. Once you, as a driver pass certain hrs, you have to, well, sleep. I did numerous routes like this where you can knock it out in a day before you actually have to crash and sleep.
Tesla cannot do that (add to that this is not a long-range model). So you MUST stop overnight. The same happened next day. I really do not know other variables here. Who hit what traffic etc. But you very well know that you will get to Denver from LA in your GS350 much faster than Tesla. Not to mention if you use the opportunity that CSP is underfunded and does not have enough cars between San Bernandino and NV borderline and step on it.

I am all ears to tell me about your road trip of 1000-1200mls in Tesla.

I typically fly if I have any real distance. My guess is, if we were to drive 1,200 miles we would take the RX450h. So we will have to find something else to discuss. The GS did fly between Los Gatos and Petaluma today, about 90 miles each way through The City.

Thanks for the additional information in support of your 18 hour to 3 day comparison.

 

[edyvw]

I typically fly if I have any real distance. My guess is, if we were to drive 1,200 miles we would take the RX450h. So we will have to find something else to discuss. The GS did fly between Los Gatos and Petaluma today, about 90 miles each way through The City.

Thanks for the additional information in support of your 18 hour to 3 day comparison.

That is the thing, if EV is only option, you have to take into consideration that the average family of 4-5, is saving A LOT by driving. They cannot fly, or even if they could, they still save money.

 

[sk_pete]

This Board is called BOBISTHEOILGUY, not Bob Is The Electric Guy, I am not jumping on the EV Bandwagon since this technology on the batteries is in its infancy.

It has gear oil, grease, coolant (dielectric), and ac oil. we are still ok.

 

[sk_pete]

Range anxiety is real. I tell perspective owners they have to think differently. ESPECIALLY charging; these cars are different. You have to learn.

80/20 (or less) charging is crucial if battery life is your goal. That puts range anxiety to next level

 

[sk_pete]

Cryptocurrencies must overcome three main issues to take over cash. First, governments and regulators must see it as legitimate.

Dollars not covered by gold, and being printed on accelerated pace... what is worse?

 

[javacontour]

Edy, that's an ICE point of view. Kinda one sided, if you think about it. Even short sided if you consider what it takes to gas up.

I find going to gas stations a pain. And the price of gas? Horrid. To get a "decent" price I have to drive 10+ miles each way to Costco and go real early or wait in line. That's easily a 40 minute fill up with wasted mileage to boot. There is no such thing as a 5 minute fill up if you include travel time, wait time and wasted mileage.
Right now if I only had the Tesla, I be fine. I prefer to fly when I go any real distance.

People who regularly drive 400 miles each way; well that's another story. But it's the exception rather than the rule. Most people average 25 miles per day; certainly less than 100.
15,000 miles / 365 days = 42 miles per day.
15,000 / 260 = 58 miles per day. 260 is a 5 day work week.

EVs are not for everyone. Even if it makes sense for someone say, like you, it's your money and you get to drive what you like. Maybe Elon will code a 6 cylinder stick app for his iPhone cars?

That also depends on where you live. I’m staying with some friends who live in rural MO this weekend and 25 miles is their one way distance to grocery shopping and other such conveniences.

I suspect that crowd is over-represented here. Well that and your pick-up crowd.

But it will be the last crowd where the EV infrastructure is built for.

 

[Cujet]

Tesla BMS, thermal controls and battery selection is a lot better than some companies (*ahem, Nissan*). I'm quite skeptical that pouch cells will see the same level of durability, and results we've seen from some of the hybrids tends to support that skepticism.

Prismatics too. They are in essence, pouch cells in a box. The box is often larger than a cylindrical cell and structurally unable to handle expansion in the same manner as a cylinder.

EDIT: I remain utterly convinced Tesla (and by default, companies that copy Tesla) has the absolute best battery technology. Tesla is well aware of what GM and others are doing, especially the 800V charging. Elon mentioned higher than 350KW charging years ago. Tesla chooses charging rates carefully. Don't expect long battery life at high charge rates. Or when charging instantly in cold weather.

Here is a prismatic battery that has experienced a bit of a problem:
Note: no, this is not the formulation or design GM uses, however, all prismatics are subject to swelling.

Also, LG is now making the 4680:

 

[PimTac]

Long distance EV drives use a completely different strategy from an ICE vehicle. You start off every day with a big charge (90 or even 100%) but after that only charge enough to get from one charging station to the next (with as much spare charge as makes you comfortable - we aim for 15%). So 5, 10 and 15 minute charges get you down the road just fine. It works but it's different.

That might work now but when more EVs are on the roads that will clog up charging stations. Plus, the unknown like an accident blocking with a long detour or no detour route will result in a lot of dead vehicles.

 

[EspressoJunky]

Imagine how cool it is when your EV charging is going like this:

View attachment 125947

Not in this century, likely never to be honest. Even the most advanced phones won't charge any faster than 1-1.5% per minute and that is pushing lithium technology in terms of performance/longevity.

 

[UncleDave]

Not in this century, likely never to be honest. Even the most advanced phones won't charge any faster than 1-1.5% per minute and that is pushing lithium technology in terms of performance/longevity.

Phones aren't actively cooled and not a great analogy

New cars charge pretty fast at least to 80% - fast enough to go from 5-80% while you are taking a whizz and getting a coffee refill.

 

[EspressoJunky]

Phones aren't actively cooled and not a great analogy

New cars charge pretty fast at least to 80% - fast enough to go from 5-80% while you are taking a whizz and getting a coffee refill.

Point being is phone battery tech is about as advanced as anything else made and I seriously doubt any car battery in existence can go from 5-80% in 2-3 mins as that's all the time I need to hit the bathroom. I don't get coffee away from home as it's all garbage and a waste of $. I won't doubt EVs are here to stay, but like many things in life it will be on a minimal level for a handful of the population as that sort of thing will never be practical for many of us in everyday use. Are people forgetting battery powered vehicles have been around a LONG time and still won't replace fossil fuels in most ways? Yes they have advanced quite a bit, but more hurdles continue to exist.

This sort of discussion is like people going on and on about paper money/coins 'eventually' being phased out. Been hearing that sort of crap for years and it will never be done away with as many people still trust cash over any other form of payment if possible. Regardless of how antiquated things seem they will always have a solid/daily use in life. Simply can't fix what isn't broken!

 

[UncleDave]

That might work now but when more EVs are on the roads that will clog up charging stations. Plus, the unknown like an accident blocking with a long detour or no detour route will result in a lot of dead vehicles.

On clogging up chargers sure- on detour resulting in dead cars, not so much. They just don't use a lot of juice idling or going slow.

You can be sure people will run them out of juice though, just like they run out of gasoline today.

 

[demarpaint]

Point being is phone battery tech is about as advanced as anything else made and I seriously doubt any car battery in existence can go from 5-80% in 2-3 mins as that's all the time I need to hit the bathroom. I don't get coffee away from home as it's all garbage and a waste of $. I won't doubt EVs are here to stay, but like many things in life it will be on a minimal level for a handful of the population as that sort of thing will never be practical for many of us in everyday use. Are people forgetting battery powered vehicles have been around a LONG time and still won't replace fossil fuels in most ways? Yes they have advanced quite a bit, but more hurdles continue to exist.

All kidding aside how long does it take to charge a Tesla from 5%-80%, best case, and about how many miles will that charge take the car? Our stops for fuel and a squirt typically take less than 10 minutes. I read super changing a Tesla can take about 15 minutes and take the car about 200 miles. If that's the case sorry to say I'm not still impressed. Most cars can easily double that distance on a tank of gas, and if you eliminate the squirt break, fill up in under 5 minutes and back on the road..

 

[UncleDave]

Point being is phone battery tech is about as advanced as anything else made and I seriously doubt any car battery in existence can go from 5-80% in 2-3 mins as that's all the time I need to hit the bathroom. I don't get coffee away from home as it's all garbage and a waste of $. I won't doubt EVs are here to stay, but like many things in life it will be on a minimal level for a handful of the population as that sort of thing will never be practical for many of us in everyday use. Are people forgetting battery powered vehicles have been around a LONG time and still won't replace fossil fuels in most ways? Yes they have advanced quite a bit, but more hurdles continue to exist.

This sort of discussion is like people going on and on about paper money/coins 'eventually' being phased out. Been hearing that sort of crap for years and it will never be done away with as many people still trust cash over any other form of payment if possible. Regardless of how antiquated things seem they will always have a solid/daily use in life. Simply can't fix what isn't broken!

agree and disagree.

Car batteries are way more advanced than phones - full stop.
A single cell pouch doesn't remotely compare to a hundred plus cell series/parallel striped water cooled array.

On a multi day trip it's going to be rough without coffee after leaving home, but as a guy with a super automatic machine I agree road coffee is mostly garbage, but I wont go without it.

Workable battery cars have only been around about a decade, but novelty vehicles... sure... forever.

Im not sure 1/2 tons and up will ever be replaced by BEV's, but sedans and SUV are there for a majority of drivers with home charging available if you want to spend the money - they are still expensive vehicles and saving money on transportation doesn't start with writing 50K and up checks.

Convenience is a highly personal thing, but experience is a fantastic teacher and often flips prior belief.

People that have never used one are experts at convincing themselves they will never work for them, but in almost every case when you lay out the details and compare the claims fall down. In discussions like these no one stops to eat, pee, (or these things take a laughably small amount of time) and everyone drives 1000 miles every day, in this cases sure a BEV becomes more difficult to live with, in terms of a daily commute the convenience of starting everyday with a nearly full tank - flips.

 

[UncleDave]

All kidding aside how long does it take to charge a Tesla from 5%-80%, best case, and about how many miles will that charge take the car? Our stops for fuel and a squirt typically take less than 10 minutes. I read super changing a Tesla can take about 15 minutes and take the car about 200 miles. If that's the case sorry to say I'm not still impressed. Most cars can easily double that distance on a tank of gas, and if you eliminate the squirt break, fill up in under 5 minutes and back on the road..

Thats about what it is - 15 min to go about 200 miles.

 

[OVERKILL]

Prismatics too. They are in essence, pouch cells in a box. The box is often larger than a cylindrical cell and structurally unable to handle expansion in the same manner as a cylinder.

EDIT: I remain utterly convinced Tesla (and by default, companies that copy Tesla) has the absolute best battery technology. Tesla is well aware of what GM and others are doing, especially the 800V charging. Elon mentioned higher than 350KW charging years ago. Tesla chooses charging rates carefully. Don't expect long battery life at high charge rates. Or when charging instantly in cold weather.

Here is a prismatic battery that has experienced a bit of a problem:
Note: no, this is not the formulation or design GM uses, however, all prismatics are subject to swelling.

Also, LG is now making the 4680:

When I think of prismatic, I tend to think of the solid walled version BMW is using:

AFAIK, they have not had any issues with long-term durability with these (quite unlike Nissan and GM). Also, interestingly, like Tesla, BMW doesn't limit maximum draw duration from the pack, which everybody using pouch cells appears to be doing.

 

[UncleDave]

When I think of prismatic, I tend to think of the solid walled version BMW is using:
View attachment 126031

AFAIK, they have not had any issues with long-term durability with these (quite unlike Nissan and GM).

BMW is switching to 4680 sized cells.