...until it happens to you or your family. Then it's kill the MF'er
There's a special place reserved for some scum
- Thread starter Shannow
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...until it happens to you or your family. Then it's kill the MF'er
Not much of that down here, as it's been abolished for 80 or 90 years.
Plenty of innocent people saved "from the gallows", and a general populace who don't seek revenge as a form of "justice"
As a matter of fact, John Howard announced the other day that he will be using his position as a confidant with W to try to convince the U.S. to stop the death penalty.
Plenty of innocent people saved "from the gallows", and a general populace who don't seek revenge as a form of "justice"
As a matter of fact, John Howard announced the other day that he will be using his position as a confidant with W to try to convince the U.S. to stop the death penalty.
I think the death penalty is right. It is a very good detterant. I think public hangings would deter alot of would be criminals. I feel no remorse for blotched lethal injections. If I had my way they would placed in a large steel vat that would then be fired with propane and burned alive for their crimes.
The death penalty is not revenge - it's nothing to do with revenge, never did.
It's justice.
It's justice.
The death penalty at its core, like any other form of criminal punishment, is really about protecting society from those who do it harm. You can argue about deterrence, revenge, justice and everything else until you're blue in the face, but the heart of the issue is protecting society from criminals. In first world countries with modern prisons, you don't need to execute people to protect society.
If it's such a good deterrent why is your homicide rate five times ours?
Sprintman, I've read your posts for a long time and I know what you are getting at here. If it makes you feel better, I will just come out and say it. The numbers don't lie - the US, for whatever number of reasons, is home to a relatively violent/warlike people, even if you do correct for the fact that one particular segment of our society is killing itself off at an alarming rate.
I get a sense that you glean some sort of feeling of personal or national moral superiority from this, and maybe you're right. Or maybe our existence and perceived willingness to take up the sword, as disgusting as it seems to you, acts as a counterbalance to the ambitions of others to do even more unspeakable things. Perhaps at those times when we (collectively) no longer have the luxury of civility this American 'weakness' is actually an asset.
As for the original point, whether our current form of capital punishment is an effective deterrent or not, I do agree with you.
clembrewer is right, its never been about revenge, but rather seeking justice for the victims, the payment of the debt for the crime, and the protection of society.
But there is another level of justice to be considered also.
It is that those who are found to be criminals no longer being a burden on the society that they abuse in their many ways.
It is not justice IMO to have such a huge burden of support placed on society for the upkeep of those who would steal, rape, and kill when given the opportunity.
Modern prisons don't protect society from that huge financial burden.
I would be open to a system that caused prison populations to produce an equal return for their expense but I doubt its attainable on the scale we are talking about. Unless a penal colony concept could be made to work well; that seems possibly viable.
I also agree with sprintman and Matt89 that capital punishment the way we have done it hasn't proven to be an effective deterrent, but it wasn't ever meant to be.
Study the history of incarceration and you'll find we went to the concept of rehabilitation some years ago, but it wasn't always like that. You simply did your hard time in payment of your debt to society, or paid with your life if the debt was that high.
I am most in favor of a return to that system but with an accompanied overhaul of the trial system that would best protect the innocent that wrongly get caught up in it.
But there is another level of justice to be considered also.
It is that those who are found to be criminals no longer being a burden on the society that they abuse in their many ways.
It is not justice IMO to have such a huge burden of support placed on society for the upkeep of those who would steal, rape, and kill when given the opportunity.
Modern prisons don't protect society from that huge financial burden.
I would be open to a system that caused prison populations to produce an equal return for their expense but I doubt its attainable on the scale we are talking about. Unless a penal colony concept could be made to work well; that seems possibly viable.
I also agree with sprintman and Matt89 that capital punishment the way we have done it hasn't proven to be an effective deterrent, but it wasn't ever meant to be.
Study the history of incarceration and you'll find we went to the concept of rehabilitation some years ago, but it wasn't always like that. You simply did your hard time in payment of your debt to society, or paid with your life if the debt was that high.
I am most in favor of a return to that system but with an accompanied overhaul of the trial system that would best protect the innocent that wrongly get caught up in it.
One thing for sure that the nearly universally accepted death penalty in the USA confirms; we are definitely NOT a Christian society.
I think many would argue with you, Kernel.
Especially those with a bit of theological background.
And I don't know if your assessment of our society is a good thing or a bad thing in your mind...
But one thing is for certain, getting rid of murderers is for sure helping the numbers of the Christians. Yes?
Btw...
I missed the memo that stated Americans are a collective group when it comes to Christianity. Heck, I understood the deal was for us as individuals.
But, I may be mistaken.
Especially those with a bit of theological background.
And I don't know if your assessment of our society is a good thing or a bad thing in your mind...
But one thing is for certain, getting rid of murderers is for sure helping the numbers of the Christians. Yes?
Btw...
I missed the memo that stated Americans are a collective group when it comes to Christianity. Heck, I understood the deal was for us as individuals.
But, I may be mistaken.
No question about it KP, we now live in the post christian era.
Jaybird is correct though.
Christians line up on both sides of this issue as it reflects the most basic perceptions we have of human nature.
Our desire to love those who spitefully use us does not mean that we should allow ourselves to be victims in the process.
That is one side of the discussion.
The other is reflected in what you stated- we should never offer resistence.
But this philosophical discussion isn't probably allowed here, it would be too easy for religious content to continue in it.
Though it can be framed as just a philosophical discussion.
The individual must strive to forgive.
Society must administer justice!
Don't confuse the two.
That is my belief.
Without justice... well, I won't stir that pot.
Society must administer justice!
Don't confuse the two.
That is my belief.
Without justice... well, I won't stir that pot.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22996983-5001028,00.html?from=mostpop
39 year old man shaved his 10 year old daughter's head, raped her, and bludgeoned her to death with a hammer...in front of two siblings, who he then left in the house with the little girl's body.
39 year old man shaved his 10 year old daughter's head, raped her, and bludgeoned her to death with a hammer...in front of two siblings, who he then left in the house with the little girl's body.
What would be the point of keeping that guy alive until he dies? Be resourceful with that piece of garbage............drop him in a tiger pen at a zoo for free food.
Originally Posted By: Ruminator
I also agree with sprintman and Matt89 that capital punishment the way we have done it hasn't proven to be an effective deterrent, but it wasn't ever meant to be.
Studies have shown it does eliminate recidivism in it's recipients.
I also agree with sprintman and Matt89 that capital punishment the way we have done it hasn't proven to be an effective deterrent, but it wasn't ever meant to be.
Studies have shown it does eliminate recidivism in it's recipients.
And it's cost effective if the Texas system is used.
Studies have shown that the murder rate increases geographically around an execution point for about 150 miles within three months after an execution. SO, it actually causes what it purports to stop.
Its also about your willingness to allow a society to kill you if it decides to. I don't want to live in a society that allows itself to kill its citizens. However, I do, hoping I never [censored] the system off that bad.
Financially the death penality is a black hole for prison budgets. For instance a Mississippi execution cost 14million out of the prison budet of 104 million in 1994. Also now we have put so much of the public budget into our police state that now those dollars are taken away from education budgets.
With that said...If the state got who was to die right and did not enforce it with racial prejudice I could go for it. DNA has shown more mistakes that I care to consider when the death penality is in play. Not only in death penalty but all crimes.
Finally, do a crime to someone I hold dear, the state wont have to bother.
Dan
Its also about your willingness to allow a society to kill you if it decides to. I don't want to live in a society that allows itself to kill its citizens. However, I do, hoping I never [censored] the system off that bad.
Financially the death penality is a black hole for prison budgets. For instance a Mississippi execution cost 14million out of the prison budet of 104 million in 1994. Also now we have put so much of the public budget into our police state that now those dollars are taken away from education budgets.
With that said...If the state got who was to die right and did not enforce it with racial prejudice I could go for it. DNA has shown more mistakes that I care to consider when the death penality is in play. Not only in death penalty but all crimes.
Finally, do a crime to someone I hold dear, the state wont have to bother.
Dan
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So it's OK for you to kill someone back, but not the state?
Studies have shown that the majority of studies are flawed.
Studies have shown that the majority of studies are flawed.
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"Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.
Cost of Life Without Parole: Cases
Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases
1. $34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million
2. Same, except 3% (3) = $4.04 million
3. Same, except 4% (3) = $5.53 million
Cost of Death Penalty Cases
1. $60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million
2. Same, except 3% (3) = $1.89 million
3. Same, except 4% (3) = $1.91 million
* There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.
(1) The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of 12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant."
I can cut and paste to!
Cost of Life Without Parole: Cases
Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases
1. $34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million
2. Same, except 3% (3) = $4.04 million
3. Same, except 4% (3) = $5.53 million
Cost of Death Penalty Cases
1. $60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million
2. Same, except 3% (3) = $1.89 million
3. Same, except 4% (3) = $1.91 million
* There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.
(1) The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of 12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant."
I can cut and paste to!
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