The NV4500 Chronicles, Part VIII.

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And so it came to pass in this, my 3rd winter of discontent, that I was pulling a 24-foot travel trailer to Gimli, Manitoba. I was feeling good that morning, having snagged a fortunate dispatch to Manitoba, which I had been trying to accomplish, being of somewhat dubious value, but marking incursions into Canada for me in all provinces from QC to BC. Adventure Dodge was humming out a steady 100 kph around Winnipeg's ring road, and I was savoring my morning coffee, looking forward to dropping the trailer in about another hour, then highballing it home. All of a sudden, the engine speed flared, the cruise control disengaged, and the truck commenced slowing down.

Oh, bother.

I've been through this before; the dreaded 5th gear nut in the NV4500 has departed the shaft, taking 5th gear with it. OK, so I have another neutral, but I'm prepared, because the GearVendors overdrive gives me another gear that is within 5% of the late, lamented 5th gear, so I can complete the run without being a rolling chicane, then I'll figure out how to get home, all of 1100 miles away. Shoved the shifter into 4th, switched on the overdrive, and torque once again flows to the rear wheels. Yay! I don't have to walk home, at least not immediately. But the next few miles induce a cold sweat on my brow and a knot in my stomach as I listen to noises from the transmission akin to gravel tumbling in a clothes dryer. It's probably just the split thrust washer rubbing against 5th driving gear, and will drop out if I slow down or stop. So I stopped, shut the engine down, then restarted, and VOILA!, no more gravel-in-a-dryer noise. The rest of the run to Gimli was nice and easy, the Manitoba roads being flat and straight, and the people at the RV dealer were friendly and completed the trailer check-in without hassle.

So now, getting home. What to do? Being without double-overdrive is going to slow me down, so the trip will take longer. Or will the thing even go that far? Should I just rent a U-Haul van and dolly in the first major town I come to, and tow it home? Nahh! The last time I lost 5th, I ran 3000 miles, 1200 of it towing a heavy trailer. Do the trip in stages. If you can get to Winnipeg, maybe you can find the rental. OK, made the run to Winnipeg with no sickening noises from the trans, so try to make Grand Forks, ND and get the rental there. OK, made the run the Grand Forks, and no noises, and the transmission is shifting fine, so just go for the whole enchilada and drive this puppy home!

From that point on, the trip home relaxed into a somewhat slow winter tour of northern MN and the UP of MI on secondary roads. US 2 is now my friend. Adventure Dodge ran steadily all the way, actually returning 21 mpg on winter fuel. I guess going slow does help fuel economy, even if you aren't in the most economical gear. Heck, the Dodge felt so good when I got home, I took another trailer into southern ON, doing another 800 miles. It finally came time to take the transmission apart and see what the problem(s) is/are.

The first picture is the output shaft with the pieces hanging on it exactly as I removed the tailshaft adapter. The pieces from left to right are the retaining nut, the Belleville washer, the thrust washer retaining ring, and the 5th gear pinion.

The second picture is a closeup of the split retaining nut that was Chrysler's design solution to the 5th gear nut problem. It is the culprit for this failure because the slot machined into the cross-section of the nut was a stress riser, allowing a crack to form and progress through the rest of the section, thereby losing clamp load on the shaft and its eventual ejection off the back off the threads.


5th-gear-disassembled.jpg


5th-gear-busted-nut.jpg
 
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The problem being with the first picture was: "where, pray-tell, are the two pieces of the hardened-steel, 1/8-inch thick split thrust washer that normally resided within the retaining ring?" It just wouldn't do to have them migrating around inside the transmission, waiting to get jammed between gears or just generally causing mechanical mayhem.

I fished around the transmission case with a retrieval magnet for about 30 minutes and found the pieces, which made a dandy puzzle to put together as a check to see that I had everything. So the two original pieces became eight; that's probably what caused the evil death-noises when the nut first let go.


5th-gear-puzzle.jpg
 
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If I am counting correctly, this marks the 3rd (or is it 4th?) 5th-gear nut failure I have had over the years. I daresay I have lost count. But suffice it to say, I have now tried all the available "fixes" for the nut design, and the remorseless torque of the Cummins engine has crushed them all. In my truck the failure mode I have seen repeatedly is stripping of the threads, then it gets shoved off the back of the shaft.

MY NUTS HAVE NEVER UNSCREWED!

All the tranny guys out there have designed their "fixes" based on the assumption that the nut unscrews, but that's not what I have been seeing. This failure was my first use of the Chrysler split nut, and it failed by fracturing where it was designed to (however inadvertently), and popping off the threads all at once.

So this time, I have gone my own way. I bought two retaining nuts, and had a local machine shop mill off the rear flange on one of them. There is enough threaded length on the shaft for two nuts, which will about double the thread shear area available, and should hopefully eliminate the thread stripping failure mode I have been experiencing.

The picture below is how I put it back together. Going left to right, is the rear nut, modified nut, belleville washer, and gear. I left the split thrust washer and retaining ring out because they just break, and it leaves room for the second nut to fully engage. I spent about $80 for the nuts, and $65 for the new gear, so even though losing 5th gear sounds serious, it's not very expensive to repair.

5th-gear-repaired.jpg
 
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Wow, thanks for the well written novel. An interesting failure and recovery, for sure.

I have to wonder if the stripping threads are due to the nut working the threads once it wiggles loose.

I've had experiences with various older (read vintage) race transaxles and differentials working internal parts loose. One solution is a very liberal use of ultra high temp loctite (says it's good to 650 deg F) . The one I like is Loctite 2620. It's difficult to find and even more difficult to use, as it's a thick goo that won't stay or flow into place without an epic fight. However, it's wonderful stuff if used/applied correctly (use way too much, clean off the excess) . As it prevents hot parts from working loose.

In any case, it's just a guess as I'm not at all familiar with the issue you are experiencing. I wish you luck.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
Wow, thanks for the well written novel. An interesting failure and recovery, for sure.

I have to wonder if the stripping threads are due to the nut working the threads once it wiggles loose.

I've had experiences with various older (read vintage) race transaxles and differentials working internal parts loose. One solution is a very liberal use of ultra high temp loctite (says it's good to 650 deg F) . The one I like is Loctite 2620. It's difficult to find and even more difficult to use, as it's a thick goo that won't stay or flow into place without an epic fight. However, it's wonderful stuff if used/applied correctly (use way too much, clean off the excess) . As it prevents hot parts from working loose.

In any case, it's just a guess as I'm not at all familiar with the issue you are experiencing. I wish you luck.


The NV4500 has the 5th gear nut problem more with the Cummins engine than with the Duramax. The theory is that 3 really strong torque pulses per revolution are fatiguing the nut more than 4 less strong pulses. Every time the engine fires, a torque pulse is converted to an axial pulse by the helical gears. Stronger nut material would probably fix the problem by increasing fatique strength, but on the other hand may only strip the threads off the shaft if it was too strong.

I did use Red Loctite on both nuts when I put it back together, but not an extreme amount.
 
OP, this is an excellent bit of writing. I'm sorry that you will evermore associate Winnipeg's Perimeter HIghway (PTH 101) with your tranny losing 5th. Nice bit of work on the repair as well. Your theory that a 6-banger with three main throws exerts more force on the tranny than a V8 makes sense.
 
One of the things we use in Fuel cars, is cryo-treating various key parts. It makes a verifiable difference.

When I lunched the TR6060 trans in my car, after adding forced induction, I rebuilt it with all cryo-treated internals. So far so good.

It might be something to consider in the future, if the problem continues.
 
Originally Posted by 02SE
One of the things we use in Fuel cars, is cryo-treating various key parts. It makes a verifiable difference.

When I lunched the TR6060 trans in my car, after adding forced induction, I rebuilt it with all cryo-treated internals. So far so good.

It might be something to consider in the future, if the problem continues.


Wouldn't parking the truck overnight in Winnipeg during winter cryo-treat everything?


lol.gif
 
OK. Adventure Dodge is all back together, test drive was successful, so we're ready for another go. Off to Iowa tomorrow.
 
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Originally Posted by 02SE
One of the things we use in Fuel cars, is cryo-treating various key parts. It makes a verifiable difference.

When I lunched the TR6060 trans in my car, after adding forced induction, I rebuilt it with all cryo-treated internals. So far so good.

It might be something to consider in the future, if the problem continues.


I've been through so much with the NV4500, this may be my last episode with it. I'm thinking of transplanting a G56 6-speed.
 
As mentioned before, it's the torque of that Cummings that is breaking the tranny. I have an NV4500 in my 8600 GVW Chevy C2500 5.7 gas and it's also been flawless.

Winnipeg. Isn't that where they harvest liquid nitrogen by just scooping it up off of the ground?
 
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Could always just drop in an Eaton RTO or Fuller FSO and call it a day.
grin.gif



I know there are people that have swapped in Eaton RTO-6610's. Input torque rating is 660 ft*lbs, so the transmission isn't ridiculously large and heavy. But it doesn't have the gearing range that I'm looking for.
I've looked at a few different medium-duty commercial truck transmissions, but their ratio coverage is wrong unless one starts making custom gearsets.
 
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