The Fram HP1 is NOT just a PH8A with a heavy case...

[ekpolk]

Quite candidly, I have only heard vague hearsay about the cardboard endcap design failing. Being a filter cutter myself, though, I have personally examined the guts from inside a bunch of filters. While the probability of a failure of a paper end cap filter may actually be low, I still prefer the obviously overbuilt metal designs. Below are two pictures I've posted in other BITOG theads before. The first is the Nissan OEM spec filter for the Infiniti G35. I inflicted the visible damage with almost no effort at all. The second pic shows the probably overbuilt insides of a Mobil-1 filter for the same car. You simply can not damage the skeletal structure of this filter with your bare hands. The ends of the filter medium are deeply cemented into the endcaps with a substance that looks like hard black epoxy. With the price differential being almost insignificant, I don't care about the actual likelihood of a failure of the paper design, I'll take the M1 (or other similar design) because I like the overbuilt design over the obviously just good enough one any day.

Nissan/Infiniti OEM (Fram-like):

And in contrast, the M1:

Dave, respectfully no, the paper end caps are definitely not tougher than the metal.

 

[Ray H]

They don't have to be. They only have to be tougher than the filtration media.

 

[T-Keith]

If you've cut apart some filters the construction problems become immediately apparent. It's been talked about 1000000 times. I don't feel like rehashing it with another "new" member that only shows up for Fram threads.

-T

 

[jsharp]

Dave and D$.

I wasn't trying to claim the HP1 was anything different than what it is. A racing only filter.
I guess the HP1 is a "quality filter" if you want a racing filter and you don't mind glued cardboard endcaps sitting in hot oil while you hope the rubber valve seals against them. Hey, I made an industrial process oven out of wood once so I know anything is possible.

But I can buy a racing filter from Wix or Motorcraft ( made by Champion Labs ) that has a thick case, a good ADBV, high flow, and doesn't have cardboard in the oil stream for about the same $$ as the HP1.

So why wouldn't I?

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

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So why wouldn't I?

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Maybe you think orange is a cool color?

Or, perhaps you're driving "General Lee" and it matches the paint?

C'mon! There are so many legitimate reasons for using a Fram!

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

I like em cause they match my new orange Chevy engine!

 

[Big O Dave]

VERY NICE!!

You may want to consider the Fram PH5, because it not only has the orange color to match your block, but also the black easy-grip coating to match your valve covers. Two for one!

P.S. On my monitor, your engine looks more red than orange... if that is really the case, then you know what that means: Baldwin B6-HPG.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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They don't have to be. They only have to be tougher than the filtration media.

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Respectfully, not so sure about that. They've got to remain stiff enough to support the medium. At least from my somewhat unscientific, in-hand crushing experiments, since the cardboard disks are not rigid (at all) and are glued to the element, if one or the other deforms or collapses, the whole thing could easily fold in on itself. For subjective impression purposes, the Nissan OEM filter element pictured above takes somewhat more hand strength to fist crush than an empty soda can, but not much more. In contrast, at least with the Champ Labs filter, the ends of the element are so securely cemented in place that they really can't go anywhere.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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then you know what that means: Baldwin B6-HPG.

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Naturally! He's got to keep his priorities straight!! Color coordination means everything in a well built engine. Don't compromise on this critical item!!

 

[ekpolk]

I hope he doesn't put green oil in it then. . . :wink:

. . .unless he's a 'Canes fan!

 

[D$]

IMO the problem with any endisks isnt the material they are made out of, but rather the glue holding them to the media. If you would use a cheap glue with metal or cardboard endisks, the endisks wont matter at all. If you use a good quality glue with either endisk, youre media will stay attached. The endisks really dont have any structural support in the filter. They are just there for glue to have a place to set for the end of the media. I believe there are filters out there (NAPA I think) that done have endisks at all. The ends of the media are sealed to each other. What does everybody think of that?

 

[Big O Dave]

D$, if you use the word "endisk" freely around here, people are going to be convinced you work for Fram... the politically correct term is "cardboard endcaps."

Just givin' you a heads-up!

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

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Big O Dave,

Can you post pictures of the HP1

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Virgin Fram HP1 Photo

I stand by my original premise: the HP1 is a different animal from the PH8A, and it actually is a quality filter.

I'm not a Fram fan, and I am also not afflicted by the animosity for Fram that so many have... nothing more is intended! I do find it quite entertaining that the name "Fram" stirs such predictable Pavlovian responses in so many places on the internet.

It's kinda fun!

P.S. Gary, is there really such a thing as a "a well constructed [D]odge?"

 

[D$]

Why is the "correct" term "cardboard endcaps?" I have seen others use the term "endisk" and I choose to only because it is quicker and easier to type. Endcaps or endisks, I could really care less about what theyre called, everybody understands what they are. And no, I do not work for FRAM.

 

[jsharp]

If you use the term "enddisk", people will need to think about the part you're referencing. If you use the term "cardboard endcap" with or without the adjectives "cheap," "cheesy," "crummy," "low buck," "low quality," etc. then people will immediately be on the same page with you.

Just trying to help...

[ November 03, 2005, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: jsharp ]

 

[ekpolk]

Posted by D$:

quote:

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Why is the "correct" term "cardboard endcaps?" I have seen others use the term "endisk" and I choose to only because it is quicker and easier to type. Endcaps or endisks, I could really care less about what theyre called, everybody understands what they are. And no, I do not work for FRAM.

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Easy there, I don't think that was intended as serious advice. A little humor never hurt anyone. . .

Respectfully, I don't agree with your earlier statement about end disks (whatever you want to call them) not mattering. From personally handling, and crunching, a few of them, I think that when endcap and element are securely attached to one another, there's a danger that a collapse of one will cause collapse of the other (so the capless design you described may actually be safer). This sort of folding in on itself will never happen in a sturdy metal cap design. For me, it comes down to choosing what may be overbuilt filter, because the price is essentially the same as the cardboard capped filter that's built just good enough. I'll continue to use, and argue in favor of, the metal cap filters if for no other reason that that I like knowing that I'm getting more for my money. And I'm still convinced that the metal designs provide a margin of protection against catastrophic failure, even if such failures are improbable.

 

[T-Keith]

Take a better look at a Fram filter. The ADBV and spring are held loosely in the endcaps(or end disks) and they must seal against them to work properly. Also the ADBV cardboard is cut with flats so that it contacts the shell and centers the element and ADBV.

-T

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

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Easy there, I don't think that was intended as serious advice. A little humor never hurt anyone. . .

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Bingo!

 

[ekpolk]

Posted by D$:

quote:

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IMO the problem with any endisks isnt the material they are made out of, but rather the glue holding them to the media. If you would use a cheap glue with metal or cardboard endisks, the endisks wont matter at all. If you use a good quality glue with either endisk, youre media will stay attached. The endisks really dont have any structural support in the filter. They are just there for glue to have a place to set for the end of the media. I believe there are filters out there (NAPA I think) that done have endisks at all. The ends of the media are sealed to each other. What does everybody think of that?

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Well, I think I disagree with that. As you can see, the end caps do provide structural support, and if they're cardboard, the whole filter can crush in like this:

And as T-Keith correctly pointed out, in the Fram design, nothing at all holds the bypass valve mechanism in place (EDIT to clarify: that metal piece pushes up on the top of the can, but if the internals deform, nothing), it is just perched atop the cardboard, without so much as a gasket to ensure a seal, and can be lifted out with finger pressure, like this:

Once the structure of the filter-endcaps fails, oil will easily get by the bypass valve, which can go pretty much anywhere it wants. So can the center tube, for that matter:

I personally inflicted all of the damage you see above, with light hand pressure, nothing more. EDIT: Obviously, that does NOT including the cutting apart of the cans. I'm good, but not that good. . .

In contrast, none of this can happen in a metal end cap design. This is an elcheapo, Valuecraft (hey, I'm done chopping up $10 filters for the fun of it...) that cost a few bucks less than the Fram. The endcaps will allow no crush or movement of the element. The centertube is secure too. That's structure. Secure structure.

[ November 03, 2005, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[D$]

OK...thats fine. But how much pressure were you applying? Im sure the application for that filter does not have that much pressure flowing through it. Therefore, the filter will hold up just fine for the given application. That does not make sense at all. The bypass valve cannot go anywhere, because it is touching the top of the filter body. Yes, you may be able to crush an element outside of a filter, but thats just that... the element is outside of the body with no other components. If it were inside the can, there is no way that could happen like that. Have you ever heard of the test called "collapse?" This test fills the filter with dirt and then pumps oil into the filter to see what pressure it can withstand before it fails. Common test run on every filter. Look into it and find some results and then tell me what you think. Metal or cardboard, it doesnt matter, they both work!!!