The dry start argument

[JHZR2]

Anyone ever see oil-induced cause of dry start, eg oil completely drained off of metal surfaces?

My application could sit a month or two, so it isn't the standard argument of the oil dripping off the cylinders. Rather the thin film of oil oxidizing more rapidly if a conventional lube is used vs syn.

This is surely an incredibly tough thing to measure,so my curiosity is if anyone is aware of a corrosion/protection/humidity type test in any of the API or manufacturers' specs that provides reassurance.

I'd imagine that a group III or better oil would resist oxidation in a thin barrier film better than a conventional lube. Any thoughts?

 

[CATERHAM]

My concern with an engine that has been sitting for a couple of months or more is the oil having drained out of the bearings and lines which results in that dreaded "death rattle" for a couple of second upon starting. As a consiquence I always try to take my toys for a run every months or so if I can which prevents the problem.

 

[rjacket]

So in the event of storage would you recommend leaving the car out in the cold and using 10w+?

I left a couple of cars for a couple of months in summer and they started up fine.

 

[Rob_Roy]

I thought there was a military spec for long term storage of equipment...but of course I can't find it. Oh well, it is probably long obsolete. In any case, it is very common for heavy equipment to sit for months or years without synthetic oil in the sump.

What is your application?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
I thought there was a military spec for long term storage of equipment...but of course I can't find it. Oh well, it is probably long obsolete. In any case, it is very common for heavy equipment to sit for months or years without synthetic oil in the sump.

What is your application?


Juist a chevy pickup that I dont use all the time. Its like new, and the more I can do to keep it that way, despite low use, the better. If that means conventional, dino, some special add pack, a 0w- oil or a 20w oil, Im OK with it.

Just thinking out loud that if there is some sequence test that shows the corrosion protection or something like that, such a thing may be ideal to my application...

Particularly if the thin films of oil slowly oxidize and then it propagates along... which is my main concern. If the oil is oxidized, it may have sacrificed protection, which then equates to a dry start...

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Anyone ever see oil-induced cause of dry start, eg oil completely drained off of metal surfaces?

My application could sit a month or two, so it isn't the standard argument of the oil dripping off the cylinders. Rather the thin film of oil oxidizing more rapidly if a conventional lube is used vs syn.

This is surely an incredibly tough thing to measure,so my curiosity is if anyone is aware of a corrosion/protection/humidity type test in any of the API or manufacturers' specs that provides reassurance.

I'd imagine that a group III or better oil would resist oxidation in a thin barrier film better than a conventional lube. Any thoughts?


I don't recall any specific test that covers this. I would think either grpIII and up or conv. would not have any advantage over one another in a storage situation.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
My concern with an engine that has been sitting for a couple of months or more is the oil having drained out of the bearings and lines which results in that dreaded "death rattle" for a couple of second upon starting. As a consiquence I always try to take my toys for a run every months or so if I can which prevents the problem.


Don't worry, the oil won't drain from the bearings. If it's good for a month, it will be good for a couple months. The exposed surfaces? Unless the engine is open to atmosphere, they sit pretty well, even in northern climates. FWIW guys, I have taken boneyard engines apart that were decades old (and sitting on their side on some shelf), and there was oil in the mains and rod bearings. I don't recall any weird rust or corrosion either on cylinder walls, although typically those engines would get a hone and new cam.

 

[Donald]

After say 12 hours, I am not sure any more oil would drip out of the bearings or cylinder walls. I could believe that oil might ever so slowly drip out of the anti-drainback over weeks.

 

[ltslimjim]

What's up with the use of fogging oils, then? Can you fog the engine(?) then drive it without an oil change 2 months later?

 

[CMMeadAM]

For cars than we know may be sitting a while, we use Amsoil's ZRT ZRod 10w30 synthetic oil. It's especially formulated for that purpose and has been tested in accordance with the ASTM D-1748 Standard Rust Protection Test in the humidity cabinet. This test evaluates the rust prevention properties of oil. It provides excellent long term protection from rust and corrosion.

We've pulled spark plugs and checked the cylinders with a bore scope and found the cylinder walls to be clean and free from rust or corrosion after as much as 90 days.

We also checked the crankshaft and rod bearings through the oil drain plug hole with the bore scope as best we could and observed oil on the bearings and all rotating parts.

We've experienced no bearing rattles, or "knocking" even briefly on start-ups after 60-90 days.

You might check out the oil on Amsoils site.

 

[addyguy]

Like the last post, I was going to say Amsoil's Z-Rod oils have a section in the product description of this oil that talks about exactly this - long term stroage and corossion resistance.

 

[demarpaint]

If you're really concerned do what I did for a vehicle that sits for a long time, hook up a pre-luber. Flip a toggle switch and watch the oil pressure gauge rise, then start it. You'll just about eliminate "dry starts".

 

[TFB1]

It's something I've never worried about and I've had vehicles settin' around for years... There's a '88 T-Bird Turbo Coupe here that sat for probably six years with out being started, at least half of that time outside... Once I installed a good fuel pump last fall it started and runs fine... Also my '69 Fairlane Cobra has set for six months or more on quite a few occasions(last ran in Oct), no issue and never "rattles" on start up(it does stay inside)... Most of the time the carburetor is dry so I pull the air cleaner and dump a couple ounces gas down her throat, she always fires right up with instant oil pressure... Other than a Melling high volume oil pump, the bottom end is completely original, pistons have never been out of block...

 

[mechtech2]

I've seen engines stored in lousy conditions for years with oil still on the bearings and rings.
It'll be tough to find a dry engine to set up an experiment with.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
If you're really concerned do what I did for a vehicle that sits for a long time, hook up a pre-luber. Flip a toggle switch and watch the oil pressure gauge rise, then start it. You'll just about eliminate "dry starts".

That is the idea set up and I have a couple of freinds that have installed one on their infrequently driven toys.
But oil draining out of the bearings over time is very much an engine specific occurance. In one of my cars, sitting for two months is not a problem but 6 months is too long.
And while I hate the noise when it does happen I do wonder if any damage is being done; the engine after all is not under load.
Back in the 80's I had a V6 Chevy Celebrity company car that rapped every morning on start-up. I complained to the dealer about it but got the usual "Sir they all do that" blow-off. I put 200,000 miles on that car and the engine seemed no worse for wear when I got something else.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
If you're really concerned do what I did for a vehicle that sits for a long time, hook up a pre-luber. Flip a toggle switch and watch the oil pressure gauge rise, then start it. You'll just about eliminate "dry starts".

That is the idea set up and I have a couple of freinds that have installed one on their infrequently driven toys.
But oil draining out of the bearings over time is very much an engine specific occurance. In one of my cars, sitting for two months is not a problem but 6 months is too long.
And while I hate the noise when it does happen I do wonder if any damage is being done; the engine after all is not under load.
Back in the 80's I had a V6 Chevy Celebrity company car that rapped every morning on start-up. I complained to the dealer about it but got the usual "Sir they all do that" blow-off. I put 200,000 miles on that car and the engine seemed no worse for wear when I got something else.


I've had this setup since 1988 in my E-150, there were times when it would sit for months, especially during the winter. All I can say is I'd let that pump pressurize the system, then I'd fire it up and never hear a tick, tap, knock, etc. For a car buff that lets a vehicle sit, and likes gadgets it's a good idea.

Another perk for people who tow: I have my pre-luber is set up to a toggle switch, so after shutting down in extreme heat, or after towing I can flip the switch and allow the oil to circulate and help cool things down.

For those who like data and tests, the company that made this unit did tests and claimed it reduced start up wear by 90%. But just like all the tests we see on BITOG, it left a lot to the imagination.

 

[Propflux01]

Demarpaint: Where do you get those nowadays?

 

[NismoMax80]

what happened to the idea that syn leaves a thin coating? Mechanics have mentioned how spilling some M1 found some still on tools long period later.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: NismoMax80
what happened to the idea that syn leaves a thin coating? Mechanics have mentioned how spilling some M1 found some still on tools long period later.


Is it a syn thing or the fact that there is oil on the metal?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Demarpaint: Where do you get those nowadays?


If you Google "pre-luber oil pump" you'll see a few. Some are holding tanks that circulate oil when you start the engine, I don't like those. Mine is an external oil pump that I can power on and off, from a dash mounted switch.

We have a member here that made his own. All you need is a small pump capable of pumping oil, get an adapter to have it pick up oil from the oil drain plug, then a "T" fitting that screws into the oil sending unit. Use oil resistant hoses or hydraulic lines for the plumbing. Find a good location, mine sits on top of the left front wheel well, wire it up to a toggle switch and your done. Mine filters the oil before it goes into the engine, via a fine screen. HTH