Yeah, there is always an exception. Since I haven't found an Ecore to fit my truck, I have never cut one open. I am just not that curious to even blow $2.50 on one I don't need.
Teach me about dome vs. thread.
- Thread starter hardcore302
- Start date
- Status
Gary, thanks for the detailed answer. I can see how a loaded filter would add some resistance, but I agree it shouldn't be an issue for most vehicles with reasonable OCIs. Perhaps only if a large amount of sludge broke free during engine cleaning...
Thinking in terms of PSID, a filter bypass would always open on a cold start, since there is no pressure on the engine side until the oil is pumped past the filter. In fact, I could see the bypass opening even on a warm start, as long as the oil has had enough time to drain back into the pan.
Some say a column of oil is held up on the engine side of the filter by the anti-drainback valve, but I doubt it. That would be nice if it did, since it would help solve this problem.
I don't fully understand how the oil pump release valve would cause high PSID, but I'll take your word for it. My mechanical aptitude is limited.
labman, thanks for the tip on how to identify a dome bypass without resorting to cutting the canister open.
I had originally planned to use the Mobil 1 EP filter. However, based on river_rat's testing, I'm switching to the PureOne twin, the Bosh Premium (sorry labman). I don't care for the look and feel of the PureOne's textured grip. I also don't care for the dome bypass, but the M1 EP appears to have one, too. The top filtration filters in river_rat's test all seem to have dome bypasses, what he calls super-high efficiency filters (a level above the 98% filters like M1). I don't know about Donaldson.
Thinking in terms of PSID, a filter bypass would always open on a cold start, since there is no pressure on the engine side until the oil is pumped past the filter. In fact, I could see the bypass opening even on a warm start, as long as the oil has had enough time to drain back into the pan.
Some say a column of oil is held up on the engine side of the filter by the anti-drainback valve, but I doubt it. That would be nice if it did, since it would help solve this problem.
I don't fully understand how the oil pump release valve would cause high PSID, but I'll take your word for it. My mechanical aptitude is limited.
labman, thanks for the tip on how to identify a dome bypass without resorting to cutting the canister open.
I had originally planned to use the Mobil 1 EP filter. However, based on river_rat's testing, I'm switching to the PureOne twin, the Bosh Premium (sorry labman). I don't care for the look and feel of the PureOne's textured grip. I also don't care for the dome bypass, but the M1 EP appears to have one, too. The top filtration filters in river_rat's test all seem to have dome bypasses, what he calls super-high efficiency filters (a level above the 98% filters like M1). I don't know about Donaldson.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: sayjac
As said here, while the thread end may be preferable, in truth, bypass location makes little difference in overall filtration and oil filter function.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. Even when it goes into bypass, I doubt anything significant washes back out of the filter.
That about sums up a 'much ado about nothing' difference between dome and base/thread end bypass. btw, Purolator does make thread end too, it's called Motorcraft.
Now if you want to point to a cheesy bypass, just look at the cheesy nitrile thread end adbv/bypass combo valve on the Champion/ST/STP Ecore oil filters. Proof that not all thread end bypass are created equal.
I'll continue to buy and use Purolator oil filters including the Pure One as the best bang for the buck, high efficiency filter. The fact that they are made right here in NC, keeping my fellow Tar Heel residents employed, is an just an added bonus. NEVER a reason to apologize for using a top quality American made Purolator oil filter product.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
As said here, while the thread end may be preferable, in truth, bypass location makes little difference in overall filtration and oil filter function.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. Even when it goes into bypass, I doubt anything significant washes back out of the filter.
That about sums up a 'much ado about nothing' difference between dome and base/thread end bypass. btw, Purolator does make thread end too, it's called Motorcraft.
Now if you want to point to a cheesy bypass, just look at the cheesy nitrile thread end adbv/bypass combo valve on the Champion/ST/STP Ecore oil filters. Proof that not all thread end bypass are created equal.
I'll continue to buy and use Purolator oil filters including the Pure One as the best bang for the buck, high efficiency filter. The fact that they are made right here in NC, keeping my fellow Tar Heel residents employed, is an just an added bonus. NEVER a reason to apologize for using a top quality American made Purolator oil filter product.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Now if you want to point to a cheesy bypass, just look at the cheesy nitrile thread end adbv/bypass combo valve on the Champion/ST/STP Ecore oil filters. Proof that not all thread end bypass are created equal.
Ya. I prefer the metal spring and piston for something as important as a bypass valve. I would trust the Ecore design better if the "rubber" were silicon.
Considering the patchy reliability od ADBVs, I wonder how reliably that critical nitrile disc operates in bypass in extreme cold start-ups or when it gets a few thousand miles on it...or both.
BTW, Whats the difference between working for a German fatcat and an American fatcat?
...Six weeks vacation.
Now if you want to point to a cheesy bypass, just look at the cheesy nitrile thread end adbv/bypass combo valve on the Champion/ST/STP Ecore oil filters. Proof that not all thread end bypass are created equal.
Ya. I prefer the metal spring and piston for something as important as a bypass valve. I would trust the Ecore design better if the "rubber" were silicon.
Considering the patchy reliability od ADBVs, I wonder how reliably that critical nitrile disc operates in bypass in extreme cold start-ups or when it gets a few thousand miles on it...or both.
BTW, Whats the difference between working for a German fatcat and an American fatcat?
...Six weeks vacation.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,793
Quote:
Thinking in terms of PSID, a filter bypass would always open on a cold start, since there is no pressure on the engine side until the oil is pumped past the filter. In fact, I could see the bypass opening even on a warm start, as long as the oil has had enough time to drain back into the pan.
Well it may or may not. You'll see elevated PSID if there's nothing to shore up the media on the back side. Whether that equates to a bypass valve event is another story. In my personal observations (one application) it did not result in PSID until the engine was enveloped and the fluid presented could not fit through the engine as the pressure upramped. The supplied pressure continued to the relief limit, while the downstream pressure was below it. Surely engines that would have (something like) start up rattle would probably see elevated PSID from the start.
Quote:
Some say a column of oil is held up on the engine side of the filter by the anti-drainback valve, but I doubt it. That would be nice if it did, since it would help solve this problem.
Some do, most probably don't. Some engines allegedly have places where the engine caches oil. While I have never had cause to dwell on it much, I would imagine an elevated gallery that cannot drain completely. Let's say (for demonstration purposes) a 1/2" pipe with an offset inlet and outlet (elevated - stepped -swept - whatever) that would leave it mostly full. Now one could say "what's the use?" ..but in that case you would have a bigger conduit for higher flow capacity that's "less large" at start up due to a static mass of oil in it. It reduces the time to fully envelop the engine.
That's just my noodling some advantage to doing something like that.
Thinking in terms of PSID, a filter bypass would always open on a cold start, since there is no pressure on the engine side until the oil is pumped past the filter. In fact, I could see the bypass opening even on a warm start, as long as the oil has had enough time to drain back into the pan.
Well it may or may not. You'll see elevated PSID if there's nothing to shore up the media on the back side. Whether that equates to a bypass valve event is another story. In my personal observations (one application) it did not result in PSID until the engine was enveloped and the fluid presented could not fit through the engine as the pressure upramped. The supplied pressure continued to the relief limit, while the downstream pressure was below it. Surely engines that would have (something like) start up rattle would probably see elevated PSID from the start.
Quote:
Some say a column of oil is held up on the engine side of the filter by the anti-drainback valve, but I doubt it. That would be nice if it did, since it would help solve this problem.
Some do, most probably don't. Some engines allegedly have places where the engine caches oil. While I have never had cause to dwell on it much, I would imagine an elevated gallery that cannot drain completely. Let's say (for demonstration purposes) a 1/2" pipe with an offset inlet and outlet (elevated - stepped -swept - whatever) that would leave it mostly full. Now one could say "what's the use?" ..but in that case you would have a bigger conduit for higher flow capacity that's "less large" at start up due to a static mass of oil in it. It reduces the time to fully envelop the engine.
That's just my noodling some advantage to doing something like that.
Bottom line is that you can get as good or better American made by an American company filter for the same or less. I have bought my last German one. Where does Bosch have their higher paid design, engineering, marketing, etc. people?
For the guys that are getting tired of the broken record that is "I won't buy it, it's German!," just put the author on "ignore."
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
Thanks, Gary, that's something else I didn't consider. Cold, thick oil would have greater trouble pushing through the rest of the engine than through the filter. Is your bypass test thread still posted on BITOG?
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Now if you want to point to a cheesy bypass, just look at the cheesy nitrile thread end adbv/bypass combo valve on the Champion/ST/STP Ecore oil filters. Proof that not all thread end bypass are created equal.
Ya. I prefer the metal spring and piston for something as important as a bypass valve. I would trust the Ecore design better if the "rubber" were silicon.
Considering the patchy reliability od ADBVs, I wonder how reliably that critical nitrile disc operates in bypass in extreme cold start-ups or when it gets a few thousand miles on it...or both.
BTW, Whats the difference between working for a German fatcat and an American fatcat?
...Six weeks vacation.
But you must not support that dang Robert Bosch(and Mann+Hummel) under any circumstance, it's an order.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Now if you want to point to a cheesy bypass, just look at the cheesy nitrile thread end adbv/bypass combo valve on the Champion/ST/STP Ecore oil filters. Proof that not all thread end bypass are created equal.
Ya. I prefer the metal spring and piston for something as important as a bypass valve. I would trust the Ecore design better if the "rubber" were silicon.
Considering the patchy reliability od ADBVs, I wonder how reliably that critical nitrile disc operates in bypass in extreme cold start-ups or when it gets a few thousand miles on it...or both.
BTW, Whats the difference between working for a German fatcat and an American fatcat?
...Six weeks vacation.
But you must not support that dang Robert Bosch(and Mann+Hummel) under any circumstance, it's an order.
Originally Posted By: labman
Where does Bosch have their higher paid design, engineering, marketing, etc. people?
Well, since they are American-made Purolator filters, and regardless of their new owners Purolator is doing business as usual here in America, I would assume the answer to your question is: here in America.
Did you or someone close to you get laid off by Purolator or something?
Where does Bosch have their higher paid design, engineering, marketing, etc. people?
Well, since they are American-made Purolator filters, and regardless of their new owners Purolator is doing business as usual here in America, I would assume the answer to your question is: here in America.
Did you or someone close to you get laid off by Purolator or something?
Originally Posted By: Mustang_Cougar
For the guys that are getting tired of the broken record that is "I won't buy it, it's German!," just put the author on "ignore." Problem solved.
What also sucks are the ones here that continue to goad this subject as if we're in kindergarten class. Just look at the blatant examples a few posts above.
Grow up, guys. The answer to the problem is NOT to lower yourself to the opponents level.
Shame on all of you.
And, Labman, I try hard to respect your opinion, but this is starting to get like when you used to preach about rebuilding your brake's rubber components vs. just bleeding them.
And, do I need to remind everyone about the Japanese Chevy LUV that you kept alive for so many years?
PS...why do I write this when I know it will only cause trouble????? One of the extreme few times that I stick my neck out for the sake of saving the respect and dignity of this forum.
You naughty boys.
For the guys that are getting tired of the broken record that is "I won't buy it, it's German!," just put the author on "ignore." Problem solved.
What also sucks are the ones here that continue to goad this subject as if we're in kindergarten class. Just look at the blatant examples a few posts above.
Grow up, guys. The answer to the problem is NOT to lower yourself to the opponents level.
Shame on all of you.
And, Labman, I try hard to respect your opinion, but this is starting to get like when you used to preach about rebuilding your brake's rubber components vs. just bleeding them.
And, do I need to remind everyone about the Japanese Chevy LUV that you kept alive for so many years?
PS...why do I write this when I know it will only cause trouble????? One of the extreme few times that I stick my neck out for the sake of saving the respect and dignity of this forum.
You naughty boys.
Last edited:
Aww come on. Just having some fun with ad infinitum theme of protectionism and xenophobia present on this board.
Btw, that is an interesting anecdote about the LUV truck. Must one of those, do as I say not as I do, deals.
Also, that nun reminds me of one that used to hit me in elementary school.
My last day at that school I threw a firecracker down the stairwell by her classroom, no harm done. Kinda like a prison break.
Btw, that is an interesting anecdote about the LUV truck. Must one of those, do as I say not as I do, deals.
Also, that nun reminds me of one that used to hit me in elementary school.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,793
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Thanks, Gary, that's something else I didn't consider. Cold, thick oil would have greater trouble pushing through the rest of the engine than through the filter. Is your bypass test thread still posted on BITOG?
Yes, but unfortunately most of the images are gone from it. I was using Sony imagestion and they closed down. I scavenged a few of them, but without the links being intact, most of them really didn't mean much.
This is a shot (iirc) where the readings started to diverge on start up. The upper gauge heading to 82psi ..with the lower one hanging up at the lower level. Again, it was more or less a "transient" event in this engine. That's why I term "spinning tires" and such since it appeared that it was merely an expression of inertia where the fluid took time to get "in phase" with the power applied to it. The relief and the bypass (if you reached the proper differential) providing "slack"/cushion for an otherwise virtually solid fluid transmission.
Part of it
I then took out those individual gauges and tapped the lines into a differential pressure gauge. I was too lazy to run both. Actually I only had so much time to devote to the project and it was way easier to just swap lines. I had NO REACTION for so long with a brand new PureOne 3614 equivalent that I thought the thing was broken. I then placed a 9k used PH16 sized M1. Then in cold weather with heavy oil I got my reaction. It too was, more or less, transient in nature ...with extended residuals and effects due to the loading. Those images are lost.
The last test, iirc
I still have this setup (the lines and the welded shut sandwich adapter -remote mount), but it would be a pain to install in my jeep. The minivan had all kinds of room and had 180k on it ..so I could hack the thing and what did it matter. At least a pain for stuff that I already know, if you see what I mean
Here's how I tapped my pressure lines and temp sender (not in THIS image)
By geeaea at 2007-11-20
Thanks, Gary, that's something else I didn't consider. Cold, thick oil would have greater trouble pushing through the rest of the engine than through the filter. Is your bypass test thread still posted on BITOG?
Yes, but unfortunately most of the images are gone from it. I was using Sony imagestion and they closed down. I scavenged a few of them, but without the links being intact, most of them really didn't mean much.
This is a shot (iirc) where the readings started to diverge on start up. The upper gauge heading to 82psi ..with the lower one hanging up at the lower level. Again, it was more or less a "transient" event in this engine. That's why I term "spinning tires" and such since it appeared that it was merely an expression of inertia where the fluid took time to get "in phase" with the power applied to it. The relief and the bypass (if you reached the proper differential) providing "slack"/cushion for an otherwise virtually solid fluid transmission.
Part of it
I then took out those individual gauges and tapped the lines into a differential pressure gauge. I was too lazy to run both. Actually I only had so much time to devote to the project and it was way easier to just swap lines. I had NO REACTION for so long with a brand new PureOne 3614 equivalent that I thought the thing was broken. I then placed a 9k used PH16 sized M1. Then in cold weather with heavy oil I got my reaction. It too was, more or less, transient in nature ...with extended residuals and effects due to the loading. Those images are lost.
The last test, iirc
I still have this setup (the lines and the welded shut sandwich adapter -remote mount), but it would be a pain to install in my jeep. The minivan had all kinds of room and had 180k on it ..so I could hack the thing and what did it matter. At least a pain for stuff that I already know, if you see what I mean
Here's how I tapped my pressure lines and temp sender (not in THIS image)
Yes, I own a Japanese truck. In 77 when I bought it, there wasn't any American made truck like it. Frankly, I remember some management classes I attended a couple of years later. The teacher started out class every day talking about how American manufacturers needed to get their act together because people are fed up with problems with their cars. I keep thinking how happy I was with my truck. Then it dawned on me one day, it wasn't American. Duh?
I have always bought American if the quality and price are there and I can find what I want. I have bought 3 American made cars since them and had fewer problems than with the truck. At least by 1981, GM had its act together on rust.
I am not the only one here pushing the buy American idea, even if I am the principal one suggesting there is more to it than where something is built. I have GM, Ford, and the higher end filter manufacturers in my corner on done end bypasses.
I suspect some people here are very afraid that for all their efforts to shut me up, some people are going to look at the facts and forget buying Purolator. Personal attacks and ridicule are most useful to those short of facts.
I have always bought American if the quality and price are there and I can find what I want. I have bought 3 American made cars since them and had fewer problems than with the truck. At least by 1981, GM had its act together on rust.
I am not the only one here pushing the buy American idea, even if I am the principal one suggesting there is more to it than where something is built. I have GM, Ford, and the higher end filter manufacturers in my corner on done end bypasses.
I suspect some people here are very afraid that for all their efforts to shut me up, some people are going to look at the facts and forget buying Purolator. Personal attacks and ridicule are most useful to those short of facts.
In the whole picture of things dome end VS.thread end bypass will never make a difference for 99.9999999758% of the time
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,793
Quote:
I suspect some people here are very afraid that for all their efforts to shut me up, some people are going to look at the facts and forget buying Purolator. Personal attacks and ridicule are most useful to those short of facts.
Well, I don't think I would stop buying Purolator if I was interested in buying a Purolator, but I have to admit the Purolator fandom has hit this forum like a fungus.
I never was much for fan-boy anything, so it's hard to understand for me. All products tend to be sensibly competitive in their target market at their price point. If they're not, then the competitors are allowing a free ride for the competition.
but to this and all that, I think the PureOne is a good filter and I like MC's.
I suspect some people here are very afraid that for all their efforts to shut me up, some people are going to look at the facts and forget buying Purolator. Personal attacks and ridicule are most useful to those short of facts.
Well, I don't think I would stop buying Purolator if I was interested in buying a Purolator, but I have to admit the Purolator fandom has hit this forum like a fungus.
I never was much for fan-boy anything, so it's hard to understand for me. All products tend to be sensibly competitive in their target market at their price point. If they're not, then the competitors are allowing a free ride for the competition.
but to this and all that, I think the PureOne is a good filter and I like MC's.
Thanks for the info. Seeing as how Ford specifies thread end, I'll place my faith in them and use thread end filters. Thanks!
Quote:
Well, I don't think I would stop buying Purolator if I was interested in buying a Purolator, but I have to admit the Purolator fandom has hit this forum like a fungus.
I never was much for fan-boy anything, so it's hard to understand for me. All products tend to be sensibly competitive in their target market at their price point. If they're not, then the competitors are allowing a free ride for the competition.
but to this and all that, I think the PureOne is a good filter and I like MC's.
Actually IMO, I see little difference since I've joined. Other than the fact the Pure One and Classic have relatively recently tested very well in river rats bench tests, perhaps that explains some of the increased interest. For ~$6 or less for 99.9% efficient makes it a very solid value.
As for the fanboy analogy, while I don't participate in the oil additive board much, there seems to be plenty of fanboy fungus for products like RX and MMO. I've even read where some posters even take personal, negative or less than positive comments on products like RX. That wouldn't be a fan-boy?
Bottom line, if there's an issue with a Purolator made oil filter product because of construction, efficiency etc, than that's open to discussion. If the issue is some disguised agenda, than that should be illuminated as part of the discussion. Unfortunately the off topic agenda cancer has become part of any Purolator oil filter discussion. Fortunately, those who have been here can see through the smoke screen.
Well, I don't think I would stop buying Purolator if I was interested in buying a Purolator, but I have to admit the Purolator fandom has hit this forum like a fungus.
I never was much for fan-boy anything, so it's hard to understand for me. All products tend to be sensibly competitive in their target market at their price point. If they're not, then the competitors are allowing a free ride for the competition.
but to this and all that, I think the PureOne is a good filter and I like MC's.
Actually IMO, I see little difference since I've joined. Other than the fact the Pure One and Classic have relatively recently tested very well in river rats bench tests, perhaps that explains some of the increased interest. For ~$6 or less for 99.9% efficient makes it a very solid value.
As for the fanboy analogy, while I don't participate in the oil additive board much, there seems to be plenty of fanboy fungus for products like RX and MMO. I've even read where some posters even take personal, negative or less than positive comments on products like RX. That wouldn't be a fan-boy?
Bottom line, if there's an issue with a Purolator made oil filter product because of construction, efficiency etc, than that's open to discussion. If the issue is some disguised agenda, than that should be illuminated as part of the discussion. Unfortunately the off topic agenda cancer has become part of any Purolator oil filter discussion. Fortunately, those who have been here can see through the smoke screen.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The flow can't be reduced unless the pump is in relief.
As said many times, the flow going through the filter & engine is the maximum possible for the oil viscosity at that time when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode ... which also happens to be when the maximum oil pressure is obtained for the same conditions at hand. Oil flow does not reduce when the pump hits pressure relief ... but the flow becomes constant at the maximum possible for the viscosity at that moment.
The flow can't be reduced unless the pump is in relief.
As said many times, the flow going through the filter & engine is the maximum possible for the oil viscosity at that time when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode ... which also happens to be when the maximum oil pressure is obtained for the same conditions at hand. Oil flow does not reduce when the pump hits pressure relief ... but the flow becomes constant at the maximum possible for the viscosity at that moment.
- Status
