This is the short version...With N-P-K out of a bag, there are few unknowns. You have a measurable amount of nutrients going out on a measured about of land with a known crop. To get the same N-P-K with manures, you are talking about a lot of material. The nitrogen in these materials will "locked" in the material for a period of time. It is difficult to get the nitrogen out of the manures at the exact same time the crop requires the nitrogen. During this time... the material is subject to run-off during high rains. The nutrients in the manures cause environmental concerns (such as algae blooms). You also have other concerns such as weed seeds in the manures. Make no mistake about my comment...I am not against manures. I'll take all I can get on my grass. My point is with the use of the word "organic" and "organic" is automatically better than anything else. Plus...without the synthesized nitrogen we would have little to no "organic" manures in our society.
Synthetic vs organic fertilizer
- Thread starter Drew99GT
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I'm not against synthetic fertilizer at all. I've read that because the base compound is salt, it can exacerbate dry clay soil conditions. believe me, if I could get away with just dumping a few bags of Scott's on my yard and be done with it, I would!
We just had a good 3/4 inch rain, so I'm getting the lawn mechanically aerated, and I'm going to bite the bullet this year and get a load of top soil and compost delivered and top dress the grass after I lightly over seed.
The soil is really that messed up in my yard. It gets so bad sometimes, if it's been really dry, that the soil repels water like it's water proof.
We just had a good 3/4 inch rain, so I'm getting the lawn mechanically aerated, and I'm going to bite the bullet this year and get a load of top soil and compost delivered and top dress the grass after I lightly over seed.
The soil is really that messed up in my yard. It gets so bad sometimes, if it's been really dry, that the soil repels water like it's water proof.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I'm not against synthetic fertilizer at all. I've read that because the base compound is salt, it can exacerbate dry clay soil conditions. believe me, if I could get away with just dumping a few bags of Scott's on my yard and be done with it, I would!
We just had a good 3/4 inch rain, so I'm getting the lawn mechanically aerated, and I'm going to bite the bullet this year and get a load of top soil and compost delivered and top dress the grass after I lightly over seed.
The soil is really that messed up in my yard. It gets so bad sometimes, if it's been really dry, that the soil repels water like it's water proof.
Aerating yes very good. First thing first. This will break compaction enabling the roots to grow deeper. In poor soil conditions such as heavy clay you're going to have poor microbe growth in the soil. Aerating will air things out for the roots to grow deeper. Also water will penetrate deeper. Shallow root system you going to get weaker grass.
I've done some new lawns with red dirt(clay). Rent a tiller and added free county compost. Watered it for two weeks to soften the ground. I'd use the endo roots to encourage endomycorrhizae growth. This fungi will break apart hard compact soil searching for food, amazing stuff. A humus base lawn fertilizer gro-power was applied there after.
I don't use synthetic fertilizer reason is if you understand what goes under the soil you don't want to mess with that eco balance, that society funtion.
I'm not against synthetic fertilizer at all. I've read that because the base compound is salt, it can exacerbate dry clay soil conditions. believe me, if I could get away with just dumping a few bags of Scott's on my yard and be done with it, I would!
We just had a good 3/4 inch rain, so I'm getting the lawn mechanically aerated, and I'm going to bite the bullet this year and get a load of top soil and compost delivered and top dress the grass after I lightly over seed.
The soil is really that messed up in my yard. It gets so bad sometimes, if it's been really dry, that the soil repels water like it's water proof.
Aerating yes very good. First thing first. This will break compaction enabling the roots to grow deeper. In poor soil conditions such as heavy clay you're going to have poor microbe growth in the soil. Aerating will air things out for the roots to grow deeper. Also water will penetrate deeper. Shallow root system you going to get weaker grass.
I've done some new lawns with red dirt(clay). Rent a tiller and added free county compost. Watered it for two weeks to soften the ground. I'd use the endo roots to encourage endomycorrhizae growth. This fungi will break apart hard compact soil searching for food, amazing stuff. A humus base lawn fertilizer gro-power was applied there after.
I don't use synthetic fertilizer reason is if you understand what goes under the soil you don't want to mess with that eco balance, that society funtion.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I'm not against synthetic fertilizer at all. I've read that because the base compound is salt, it can exacerbate dry clay soil conditions. believe me, if I could get away with just dumping a few bags of Scott's on my yard and be done with it, I would!
As Scott's is now more than $1.25/# here, I've been buying ammonium sulfate from a feed store. MUCH cheaper. The sulphur helps with alkaline soil/water, A.S. is just nitrogen, no P, no K. University ag-dept soil test indicated I only need nitrogen.
Originally Posted By: drew99gt
We just had a good 3/4 inch rain, so I'm getting the lawn mechanically aerated, and I'm going to bite the bullet this year and get a load of top soil and compost delivered and top dress the grass after I lightly over seed.
The soil is really that messed up in my yard. It gets so bad sometimes, if it's been really dry, that the soil repels water like it's water proof.
I too have clay soil in my yard and here in Tx it turns to concrete in the Sun. I've gone the mechanical aeration bit before, but it works much better in other soils. The first time, I didn't water before-hand and the machine wouldn't penetrate! Just rode on top! After learning to water a day before, it did work better, but still only pulled up plugs an inch or two at most long.
So after reading about the following procedure in a book, I gave it a try. I rigged up a 'water drill' from 1" PVC, a 90° elbow and a shut-off valve. I turn the water on full blast and start pushing the pipe into the ground. I'm lucky if I can get down 4". The flowing water softens the hard clay, and the pipe makes bigger holes than the aerator. I punch about a 2' foot grid offseting the rows. Be prepared to get wet!
Now your yard is more of a 3D surface, than just flat, hard clay. The side of a cylinder has quite a bit of area and this technique uses that to your advantage.
Now when you water, it'll get down below the surface instead of run off. Try it on one part of your yard on a one-foot grid and compare. If you have a big yard, break it up into sections.
Here this is considered hand-watering and thus, allowed 24/7 during water restrictions. I also use this technique around the driplines of trees & shrubs by creating a hole, turning the water down to a trickle, and leaving it for 30min or so, then moving about 2', making another hole and watering there. The water goes down in the ground, doesn't evaporate and gets put where it is best utilized. Plus, the ground get aerated.
I wish I could patent this thing. . . .
I'm not against synthetic fertilizer at all. I've read that because the base compound is salt, it can exacerbate dry clay soil conditions. believe me, if I could get away with just dumping a few bags of Scott's on my yard and be done with it, I would!
As Scott's is now more than $1.25/# here, I've been buying ammonium sulfate from a feed store. MUCH cheaper. The sulphur helps with alkaline soil/water, A.S. is just nitrogen, no P, no K. University ag-dept soil test indicated I only need nitrogen.
Originally Posted By: drew99gt
We just had a good 3/4 inch rain, so I'm getting the lawn mechanically aerated, and I'm going to bite the bullet this year and get a load of top soil and compost delivered and top dress the grass after I lightly over seed.
The soil is really that messed up in my yard. It gets so bad sometimes, if it's been really dry, that the soil repels water like it's water proof.
I too have clay soil in my yard and here in Tx it turns to concrete in the Sun. I've gone the mechanical aeration bit before, but it works much better in other soils. The first time, I didn't water before-hand and the machine wouldn't penetrate! Just rode on top! After learning to water a day before, it did work better, but still only pulled up plugs an inch or two at most long.
So after reading about the following procedure in a book, I gave it a try. I rigged up a 'water drill' from 1" PVC, a 90° elbow and a shut-off valve. I turn the water on full blast and start pushing the pipe into the ground. I'm lucky if I can get down 4". The flowing water softens the hard clay, and the pipe makes bigger holes than the aerator. I punch about a 2' foot grid offseting the rows. Be prepared to get wet!
Now your yard is more of a 3D surface, than just flat, hard clay. The side of a cylinder has quite a bit of area and this technique uses that to your advantage.
Now when you water, it'll get down below the surface instead of run off. Try it on one part of your yard on a one-foot grid and compare. If you have a big yard, break it up into sections.
Here this is considered hand-watering and thus, allowed 24/7 during water restrictions. I also use this technique around the driplines of trees & shrubs by creating a hole, turning the water down to a trickle, and leaving it for 30min or so, then moving about 2', making another hole and watering there. The water goes down in the ground, doesn't evaporate and gets put where it is best utilized. Plus, the ground get aerated.
I wish I could patent this thing. . . .
Drew, the bloke I bought my place off was an opal miner, away from home a lot, and used "liquid lawnmower" (Roundup) any time anything green grew, so I had a hard baked yard...6" below the surface was coal ash.
I turned it over the way my Dad had taught me, added organics, seeded and tamped and watered etc. every year for the first 3 or 4, and failed.
Read a book on pasture, from the local library, by a guy who was trying to work out how to maximise cattle production in Oz in the early 20th century, and he started by visiting stables in the UK that had been breeding racehorses (organically) for hundreds of years continuously....finding that they strive for not a monoculture, but 13 or thereabout species in their greenery for horse nutrition.
He put the following forward:
* In the early stages of stuff growing on soil, only stuff that grows sparsely with a deep tap root can get a hold. The early versions of this are thorny, as they can't afford to lose the results of their "effort" to animals...these penetrate and aerate, and allow water and atmospheric nitrogen into the soil. Once the have established, and had a few generations of seed and die off, there is more organic matter (deep tap roots), and the soil is more porous...if the soil was really rubbish, tall thistles grow.
* When the soil is "ready", leafy, non [censored] tap rooted plants grow, like dandelions. They behave like the thorny ones, but are doing better, and allow animals to feed on them...and urinate and defecate around them also (Read the other day that a scientist who lead the culling of 10s of thousands of elephants to prevent overgrazing has now repented, and believes that he created deserts by removing the animals)...
* After the dandelions have been through a few generations of die off, more leguminous things take over, and start fixing some nitrogen.
* when the soil is ready for it, grass will grow.
* If the soil depletes, it will revert back through the stages, and go through the next cycles again.
So I stopped killing the weeds, let the [censored] things grow, while I mowed regularly with a mulching mower (simulated grazing), and within a few months had a lovely patch of dandelions. Briefly had fleabane, or something ust like it, then a fleshy sappy groundcover, that my elkhound loved.
Then clover took over, and the next spring, grass took over interspersed with clover...depending on the year, there's more or less clover, and occasionally a flat weed or so, but they go by themselves.
I don't poison, don't mooculture, just mow, and I've got a green cushion that's kid friendly...not a lawn...a green mat.
I turned it over the way my Dad had taught me, added organics, seeded and tamped and watered etc. every year for the first 3 or 4, and failed.
Read a book on pasture, from the local library, by a guy who was trying to work out how to maximise cattle production in Oz in the early 20th century, and he started by visiting stables in the UK that had been breeding racehorses (organically) for hundreds of years continuously....finding that they strive for not a monoculture, but 13 or thereabout species in their greenery for horse nutrition.
He put the following forward:
* In the early stages of stuff growing on soil, only stuff that grows sparsely with a deep tap root can get a hold. The early versions of this are thorny, as they can't afford to lose the results of their "effort" to animals...these penetrate and aerate, and allow water and atmospheric nitrogen into the soil. Once the have established, and had a few generations of seed and die off, there is more organic matter (deep tap roots), and the soil is more porous...if the soil was really rubbish, tall thistles grow.
* When the soil is "ready", leafy, non [censored] tap rooted plants grow, like dandelions. They behave like the thorny ones, but are doing better, and allow animals to feed on them...and urinate and defecate around them also (Read the other day that a scientist who lead the culling of 10s of thousands of elephants to prevent overgrazing has now repented, and believes that he created deserts by removing the animals)...
* After the dandelions have been through a few generations of die off, more leguminous things take over, and start fixing some nitrogen.
* when the soil is ready for it, grass will grow.
* If the soil depletes, it will revert back through the stages, and go through the next cycles again.
So I stopped killing the weeds, let the [censored] things grow, while I mowed regularly with a mulching mower (simulated grazing), and within a few months had a lovely patch of dandelions. Briefly had fleabane, or something ust like it, then a fleshy sappy groundcover, that my elkhound loved.
Then clover took over, and the next spring, grass took over interspersed with clover...depending on the year, there's more or less clover, and occasionally a flat weed or so, but they go by themselves.
I don't poison, don't mooculture, just mow, and I've got a green cushion that's kid friendly...not a lawn...a green mat.
Good stuff Shannow; since I aerated, fertilized, and added kelp/humic acid, my lawn is looking much better. I have dandelions galore and some clover coming in, but I'm not going to fight it. I'll pull the ugly weeds though.
Do you guys agree or disagree about salt based fertilizer having the potential to dry out or hurt heavy clay alkiline soils? Reason being, I found a fertilizer that's made locally that claims it's formulated for clay alkaline soil, but it is not organic and it's salt based.
Thanks.
Do you guys agree or disagree about salt based fertilizer having the potential to dry out or hurt heavy clay alkiline soils? Reason being, I found a fertilizer that's made locally that claims it's formulated for clay alkaline soil, but it is not organic and it's salt based.
Thanks.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Good stuff Shannow; since I aerated, fertilized, and added kelp/humic acid, my lawn is looking much better. I have dandelions galore and some clover coming in, but I'm not going to fight it. I'll pull the ugly weeds though.
Do you guys agree or disagree about salt based fertilizer having the potential to dry out or hurt heavy clay alkiline soils? Reason being, I found a fertilizer that's made locally that claims it's formulated for clay alkaline soil, but it is not organic and it's salt based.
Thanks.
I recently spread a bale of peat moss on some bare spots in my backyard, watered it well, then the next day, spread 21-0-0 (ammonium sulfate) on top. It rained a day later..good timing. When these areas get dry I water them with Medina Hasta-Grow liquid fertilizer in a hose-end sprayer.
I used peat-moss because it's cheap, acidic, holds moisture well, and contains no sticks like much of the 'compost' and 'soil treatments' I witnessed being locally sold for bulk. I already have trigs and sticks in my yard: the trees drop them. Don't need to pay to have them brought in! That's nuts!
After a few weeks my grass is now growing well into the bare spots, is a deep emerald green and doing well. I have to keep these areas watered in order for the grass to grow into them. Once grass grows in, it'l shade the ground better and therefore, it won't dry out as fast.
Re: Syn vs. Natural fertilizer. Salt build-up may be an issue in your area because your rainfall is probably much lower than mine (33"/yr) and because it's much drier. Here in central Tx it's often quite humid so with the rain we get, I don't worry about salt build-up.
I also don't put down a lot of fertilizer at once. I spread it out over time in smaller batches instead.
Also lookup using expanded shale to amend clay soils. I finally found it in my area.
Good stuff Shannow; since I aerated, fertilized, and added kelp/humic acid, my lawn is looking much better. I have dandelions galore and some clover coming in, but I'm not going to fight it. I'll pull the ugly weeds though.
Do you guys agree or disagree about salt based fertilizer having the potential to dry out or hurt heavy clay alkiline soils? Reason being, I found a fertilizer that's made locally that claims it's formulated for clay alkaline soil, but it is not organic and it's salt based.
Thanks.
I recently spread a bale of peat moss on some bare spots in my backyard, watered it well, then the next day, spread 21-0-0 (ammonium sulfate) on top. It rained a day later..good timing. When these areas get dry I water them with Medina Hasta-Grow liquid fertilizer in a hose-end sprayer.
I used peat-moss because it's cheap, acidic, holds moisture well, and contains no sticks like much of the 'compost' and 'soil treatments' I witnessed being locally sold for bulk. I already have trigs and sticks in my yard: the trees drop them. Don't need to pay to have them brought in! That's nuts!
After a few weeks my grass is now growing well into the bare spots, is a deep emerald green and doing well. I have to keep these areas watered in order for the grass to grow into them. Once grass grows in, it'l shade the ground better and therefore, it won't dry out as fast.
Re: Syn vs. Natural fertilizer. Salt build-up may be an issue in your area because your rainfall is probably much lower than mine (33"/yr) and because it's much drier. Here in central Tx it's often quite humid so with the rain we get, I don't worry about salt build-up.
I also don't put down a lot of fertilizer at once. I spread it out over time in smaller batches instead.
Also lookup using expanded shale to amend clay soils. I finally found it in my area.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Good stuff Shannow; since I aerated, fertilized, and added kelp/humic acid, my lawn is looking much better. I have dandelions galore and some clover coming in, but I'm not going to fight it. I'll pull the ugly weeds though.
Do you guys agree or disagree about salt based fertilizer having the potential to dry out or hurt heavy clay alkiline soils? Reason being, I found a fertilizer that's made locally that claims it's formulated for clay alkaline soil, but it is not organic and it's salt based.
Thanks.
What's the alkaline soil reading. When you say salt base fertiler are you saying inorganic fertilizer(man made synthetic).
If I just aerated and got compost, kelp and humic acid in the base I would keep pushing the soil base to develope itself. Your soil base needs to heal to increase soil activity. The clay base is a pain you can't expect something instantly to develope.
"Organic all the way ! For the last 4 years I've used Natures Lawn and poultry fertilizers. I see more earthworms, butterflies and helpful insects. It's taken some time but my lawn is healthier and stays that way than my neighbors who used synthetic ferts. Weeds are a lot less, though I do use organic weed killers too. It does take several seasons to see the benefits and the usage does dwindle over time, less ferts needed."
You got a under develope base from what you described. It takes time to develope the base....I would not use the salt base fertilzer....you just aerated you got compost, kelp and humic acid in the base. I'd go organic if all possible or the areation would be a waste.
Good stuff Shannow; since I aerated, fertilized, and added kelp/humic acid, my lawn is looking much better. I have dandelions galore and some clover coming in, but I'm not going to fight it. I'll pull the ugly weeds though.
Do you guys agree or disagree about salt based fertilizer having the potential to dry out or hurt heavy clay alkiline soils? Reason being, I found a fertilizer that's made locally that claims it's formulated for clay alkaline soil, but it is not organic and it's salt based.
Thanks.
What's the alkaline soil reading. When you say salt base fertiler are you saying inorganic fertilizer(man made synthetic).
If I just aerated and got compost, kelp and humic acid in the base I would keep pushing the soil base to develope itself. Your soil base needs to heal to increase soil activity. The clay base is a pain you can't expect something instantly to develope.
"Organic all the way ! For the last 4 years I've used Natures Lawn and poultry fertilizers. I see more earthworms, butterflies and helpful insects. It's taken some time but my lawn is healthier and stays that way than my neighbors who used synthetic ferts. Weeds are a lot less, though I do use organic weed killers too. It does take several seasons to see the benefits and the usage does dwindle over time, less ferts needed."
You got a under develope base from what you described. It takes time to develope the base....I would not use the salt base fertilzer....you just aerated you got compost, kelp and humic acid in the base. I'd go organic if all possible or the areation would be a waste.
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Organic Fertilizers are materials derived from plant and animal parts or residues. Examples are, Blood Meal, Compost, Bat Guano, Manure, Seaweed, and Worm Castings.
Synthetic Fertilizers are “Man made” inorganic compounds - usually derived from by-products of the petroleum industry. Examples are Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Superphosphate, and Potassium Sulfate.
Synthetic Fertilizers are “Man made” inorganic compounds - usually derived from by-products of the petroleum industry. Examples are Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Superphosphate, and Potassium Sulfate.
Everything has its place. You need to apply it correctly and not just dumping too much and let it drain into the river and ocean.
Synthetic vs Organic is more about fast vs slow releases and single type vs other diverse type of nutrients you release back to the soil. There is a reason you hardly see organic nectarines in local farmer's market (only no spray), and there is also reason why farmers still do crop rotation with soy beans and other organic fertilizers.
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Pandabear
This is exactly what was as per my knowledge. For sure, pandabear could have more understanding than me. I 'm yet researching more on the subject matter. but would love to appreciate the pandabear to make me doing this.
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