synthetic and leaks
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Would MaxLife synthetic "lessen" the chance of "leaking" when being used in an older, high mileage auto?
Good discussion, but I stand by my statement. Even when the oil is pouring out as fast as you pour it in
did the synthetic oil really CAUSE the leak by destroying the seal? Wearing the moving metal shaft at the seal? I mean REALLY BE THE CAUSATIVE FACTOR? I have to again say: Nope!
My clearest case of leak IMMEDIATELY after installing synthetic oil was a gearbox. I have trouble with the notion of 'crust' on those seals. I'm not talking about input or output shafts, either. I'm talking about a diff lock shaft seal leak. That shaft has not moved since I got the car, and I have a lot of trouble thinking there was oxidized gear oil crust that was disintegrated faster than Obi-Wan Kenobi disappeared when hit with a light saber. That seal weeps on synthetic (only), and it's not even below the static oil level.
This is not the only leak I've experienced, but I think it is useful to illuminate one aspect of the notion that there's 'crust' that a synth cleans off. I mean, seriously, if synthetic oil was so good at instantly dissolving crud, why is it so commonly said that Auto-RX works and even Redline can't really clean like that?
This is not the only leak I've experienced, but I think it is useful to illuminate one aspect of the notion that there's 'crust' that a synth cleans off. I mean, seriously, if synthetic oil was so good at instantly dissolving crud, why is it so commonly said that Auto-RX works and even Redline can't really clean like that?
I never said "crust" (now famous) removal was the only reason. In your case I'll bet that shaft was at minimum material condition and the elastomeric seal wasn't perfect either, from manufacture and dry shelf life
When the first di ester synthetics came out I had SEEN several gear box seal falures the seals looked "squishy" and did not hold shape at all.
This was 30 years ago and that maybe where a lot of this info has come from at that time Sorry but I think the brands were amsoil, LE, NEO.
bruce
This was 30 years ago and that maybe where a lot of this info has come from at that time Sorry but I think the brands were amsoil, LE, NEO.
bruce
Indeed 30+ years ago there were issues with seals and synthetics. I was assuming we are talking here and now.
First off, nobody said any of my seals were "killed." Just leaking. Second, if you'd read my post carefully, you'd have noticed that (A) I'd used synthetic the entire life of the vehicle; (B) I had no -- repeat, NO -- leaks that entire time; (C) the leaks began 3000 miles into the first change with Redline. Therefore, you'll notice, I never said that synthetics cause leaks, but rather, in my case, I believe Redline caused leaks. Third, as I said, a non-leaking seal is a seal without a problem. Period. If the seal doesn't leak on Monday, and begins leaving drops on the driveway on Tuesday, it was fine on Monday and broken by Tuesday. If continuing with one's existing oil would have meant no leaks for another 50,000 miles, while the switch to Oil X caused, uncovered, precipitated a seal weakness, hyper-cleaned "false seals," whatever ... Oil X caused the leak. We can say that while Oil X may be compatible with seal material A, Oil X may be incompatible with seal material A after so many miles having previously used Oil Y. In other words, your conclusion doesn't matter in the real world. An old seal is not necessarily a "bad" or "damaged" seal, not if it can be maintained functionally using another lubricant. The only other option is for you to insist that the timing was entirely coincidental, which is just silly.
MolaKule
Staff member
FWIW,
See the test we ran on two different synthetic oils and their effect(s) on seal swell.
Disclaimer: Not an official scientific or ASTM test, but interesting nonetheless.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000058;p=2#000049
See the test we ran on two different synthetic oils and their effect(s) on seal swell.
Disclaimer: Not an official scientific or ASTM test, but interesting nonetheless.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000058;p=2#000049
I am also in the group of people whose cars leaked IMMEDIATELY after switching to syn.oil from dino at 75k miles , and it NEVER leaked oil before. I think the syn.oil clenaed off the crud false seals in my car. I don't know if it can be categorized as "caused by syn oil".
However, I think it's just too ignorant to say "syn.oil do NOT start leaks" they do, in what way, I don't know...there may be deeper roots. but they DO START LEAKS IN SOME CARS THAT USED DINO PREVIOUSLY AND WHICH DID NOT LEAK. I have such a car, and it seems a lot of other people do, too, by reading this thread. So don't deny it.
[ September 01, 2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: 97tbird ]
However, I think it's just too ignorant to say "syn.oil do NOT start leaks" they do, in what way, I don't know...there may be deeper roots. but they DO START LEAKS IN SOME CARS THAT USED DINO PREVIOUSLY AND WHICH DID NOT LEAK. I have such a car, and it seems a lot of other people do, too, by reading this thread. So don't deny it.
[ September 01, 2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: 97tbird ]
Counterpoint: Over the last 25 years, I've introduced a variety of different synthetics to a variety of different cars, all at different stages of their lives, and never seen so much as a drip, except for the time I overtorqued the drain plug on my long-gone, much-loved 88 Civic. My list of cars includes products from Honda, GM, Dodge, Ford, Nissan, VW, and Toyota. The Dodge was over 50k miles when I started with syn. The syns have included several variants of Mobil-1, hydrocracked Syntec, GC, Redline, and Amsoil.
And I've never seen so much as a drip-drop from any of these cars on any of these syns. I realize others have had different experiences, but it's going to take a lot more evidence to convince me that "synthetics cause leaks".
And I've never seen so much as a drip-drop from any of these cars on any of these syns. I realize others have had different experiences, but it's going to take a lot more evidence to convince me that "synthetics cause leaks".
All cars are different, and depending on maintenance and a bunch of other factors, some cars may NEVER have any leaks/consumption when changed to syn from dino. By the same conditions, other cars do/have done/will do.
All I'm saying is, some cars may not experience leaks when switched to syn, but that's not a reason to say it doesn't happen at all!(and vise versa, of course)
there's no absolute answer/statement for this situation. One should be careful switching, and watch for leaks, and if they do occur, revert back to dino, or keep topping up, depending on how bad the leakage is.
I just wish people wouldn't say "Sure, go ahead, I switched this many cars to syn at xk miles, and they never leaked, so you should do it, too!".
Why not say "sure, try it, but it might cause leaks, some cars do"?
All I'm saying is, some cars may not experience leaks when switched to syn, but that's not a reason to say it doesn't happen at all!(and vise versa, of course)
there's no absolute answer/statement for this situation. One should be careful switching, and watch for leaks, and if they do occur, revert back to dino, or keep topping up, depending on how bad the leakage is.
I just wish people wouldn't say "Sure, go ahead, I switched this many cars to syn at xk miles, and they never leaked, so you should do it, too!".
Why not say "sure, try it, but it might cause leaks, some cars do"?
I can certainly agree with that. Any time you make a significant change to how you care for a car (or other valuable piece of machinery, for that matter), you should carefully monitor it to ensure that it is still performing as expected. My only problem is with the global assertions that are so vague as to be unprovable. I suppose that my last post could be read as making one of those.
I do believe that the "sludge washed from dried seals" theory for synthetic "caused" leaks makes sense, so of course, I recommend caution with older engines. In the end, I suppose cars are like people -- every one is unique and they need to be watched accordingly.
Well said, Polk!
I've been watching this thread with interest. How long after the switch do the leaks typically occur?
The reason I ask is that I recently switched my wife's 2001 Jeep Cherokee from Pen 10W30 to M1 10W30 at 108,000 miles. We rolled over 111,000 over the weekend. We've owned it since new and it's had Penzoil in it since the first change at less than 500 miles. To date no leaks nor usage have been detected. It's getting a bit dark though. M1 has been in there about a month and a half now.
Switched the new-to-me '99 Miata over to M1 10W30 from whatever it had in it (dealership oil) at 84,000. Not quite to 88,000 and while I've not detected any leaks, it has used a full quart and is also getting pretty dark. This is maybe a month old oil at this point.
Switched the big Dodge RAM 2500 over to M1 from Penz. over the weekend. It has 148,000+ on it. It's a '98 model that we purchased new in Dec. '97. It's had Pen 10W30 in it since before 500 miles, too. I've been noticing for the past couple months that the valves rattle loudly at startup, but only if it's been sitting for a few days. I'm guessing it was the FRAM filter that is now waiting to be cut open.
All three of these vehicles are now sporting Wix filters.
I've noticed that the Miata's start-up rattle stopped (more or less) after the switch to M1. It only did it when warm; now it rarely does it all regardless of temps.
The Jeep behaves exactly as it always has. No extra noises, no changes in noises, isn't any louder nor quieter, etc.
The truck pulled the boat over to the lake (term used loosely) on Monday and back and I noticed no difference in it at all save that the recent valve noises weren't heard.
So far, so good. The plan was to go to much longer oil change intervals. Most of these vehicles are getting a lot of highway miles and therefore aren't being used hard. I was brought up with the quarterly or 5000 miles whichever comes first mantra, and so have always changed the oil in those intervals unless it started looking dark. I've also always used Pen. in everything. Tractors, trucks, lawn mowers - everything! So this is a big switch for me.
The reason I ask is that I recently switched my wife's 2001 Jeep Cherokee from Pen 10W30 to M1 10W30 at 108,000 miles. We rolled over 111,000 over the weekend. We've owned it since new and it's had Penzoil in it since the first change at less than 500 miles. To date no leaks nor usage have been detected. It's getting a bit dark though. M1 has been in there about a month and a half now.
Switched the new-to-me '99 Miata over to M1 10W30 from whatever it had in it (dealership oil) at 84,000. Not quite to 88,000 and while I've not detected any leaks, it has used a full quart and is also getting pretty dark. This is maybe a month old oil at this point.
Switched the big Dodge RAM 2500 over to M1 from Penz. over the weekend. It has 148,000+ on it. It's a '98 model that we purchased new in Dec. '97. It's had Pen 10W30 in it since before 500 miles, too. I've been noticing for the past couple months that the valves rattle loudly at startup, but only if it's been sitting for a few days. I'm guessing it was the FRAM filter that is now waiting to be cut open.
All three of these vehicles are now sporting Wix filters.
I've noticed that the Miata's start-up rattle stopped (more or less) after the switch to M1. It only did it when warm; now it rarely does it all regardless of temps.
The Jeep behaves exactly as it always has. No extra noises, no changes in noises, isn't any louder nor quieter, etc.
The truck pulled the boat over to the lake (term used loosely) on Monday and back and I noticed no difference in it at all save that the recent valve noises weren't heard.
So far, so good. The plan was to go to much longer oil change intervals. Most of these vehicles are getting a lot of highway miles and therefore aren't being used hard. I was brought up with the quarterly or 5000 miles whichever comes first mantra, and so have always changed the oil in those intervals unless it started looking dark. I've also always used Pen. in everything. Tractors, trucks, lawn mowers - everything! So this is a big switch for me.
I am getting ready to try a load of Redline in a 1992 mini van that has 109,000 miles on it. The van ran Durablend most of its life until about 7000 miles ago when I ran a load of Synpower and now it has had NAPA synthetic with half a quart Redline in it for the past 4500 miles. I am hoping that, since it has not leaked from these "synthetic" fills, it won't from the Redline.
some cars leak, some won't.. the condition of the engine will really matter.
i switched my car to XD-3 0W30 at around 170K and no problems so far.. at over 190K now
i switched my car to XD-3 0W30 at around 170K and no problems so far.. at over 190K now
Maybe synthetic didn't CAUSE the conditions that can lead to a leak...
But the fact remains that it did leak with the synthetic.
I mean, really this is a pointless technical play on words deciding weather are not synthetic "caused" the leak...
So I guess we can say that the leak was caused by the synthetic, but the areas damaged resulting in a leak were not caused by the synthetic.
You say this, and yet you also say:
Oh ok, well how about this. The seals deteriorated while using dino oil. Therefore, dino oil causes leaks. Ridiculous? Yes, but not a whole lot more than saying that although synthetic did not damage the seals in the first place, it leaks through the damaged seals, so therefore it caused the leaks.
Don't jump on me here for using a little dry humor. I'm just trying to make a point, a point which I feel acewiza already made best when he said
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